What Can You Do?

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
sapperadam
Posts: 87
Joined: 9 Nov 2015, 1:25pm

What Can You Do?

Postby sapperadam » 18 Nov 2015, 12:09pm

How on earth are motorists supposed to know the rules and guidelines when "supposed" cyclists don't?

This morning on my regular commute, I was in primary going past some parked cars when a passing car shouted out to me to get left and then pointed left after he passed.

A short time later, I came up to him at traffic lights and he again told me that I should be over on the left. I actually managed to be polite enough pointing out that I was following guidelines for my own safety and suggest he checks them out before giving me grief. HIs reply? "Well, I'm a cyclist and I don't ride like that, you were holding up traffic" He then drove off as the lights changed.

As for holding up traffic, a bit later I passed him again and I was holding up that much traffic that I turned into my place of work four cars in front of him because of the queue :roll:

GrumpyCyclist
Posts: 216
Joined: 7 Jul 2015, 9:05pm
Location: Bolton, UK

Re: What Can You Do?

Postby GrumpyCyclist » 18 Nov 2015, 12:16pm

You should know better as a cyclist. You are supposed to ride as close to the parked cars as possible so you have somewhere to lean on to rest when you get tired. Call yourself a cyclist...pssssh. :lol:
Weight 8th July 2015 111.9Kg : Weight now 93.8Kg. Mostly due to cycling. Wish I'd started much sooner :( #LoveTheBike

kwackers
Posts: 15460
Joined: 4 Jun 2008, 9:29pm
Location: Warrington

Re: What Can You Do?

Postby kwackers » 18 Nov 2015, 12:55pm

They're all "cyclists", it's how they know they're right and you're wrong.
Probably cycled to the park once with his kids...

I got knocked off once on a roundabout by a motorist who also claimed to be a cyclist. He cut across me clipping the bike, knocking me off and later claimed he thought the flashing red light under my bum meant I was indicating left...
I leave you to draw your own conclusions as to how much of a "cyclist" he was.

Bicycler
Posts: 3400
Joined: 4 Dec 2013, 3:33pm

Re: What Can You Do?

Postby Bicycler » 18 Nov 2015, 1:07pm

His misunderstanding is regrettable but understandable (the driver in the OP, not the one heeding Kwackers' flashing red underbum indicator :lol: ).

Firstly, the word cyclist can include many people who are not enthusiasts and/or only ride a bike occasionally. It is not likely that such people will keep up to date on what is currently considered best cycling practice. They may not have enthusiast friends to educate them. In truth, I've even seen some dangerously submissive riding by enthusiasts.

Most adult cyclists have never undergone any form of formal training or education in how to cycle. Those that have will mostly have done old-style 'cycling proficiency' as children which told them to ride exactly where he was telling you to ride. There is no mention of primary positioning or any of the 'guidelines' you allude to in the cycling section of the Highway Code where they surely might be expected to be found.

Furthermore, they will have registered how other cyclists ride submissively and how other drivers react to cyclists who are 'holding up traffic'. Finally, the idea of cyclists deliberately blocking cars from overtaking just seems wrong; it runs contrary to the general prioritisation of motor traffic flow and fits conveniently in with the stereotype of selfish cyclists ignoring the rules.

GrumpyCyclist
Posts: 216
Joined: 7 Jul 2015, 9:05pm
Location: Bolton, UK

Re: What Can You Do?

Postby GrumpyCyclist » 18 Nov 2015, 1:56pm

kwackers wrote:They're all "cyclists", it's how they know they're right and you're wrong.
Probably cycled to the park once with his kids...

I got knocked off once on a roundabout by a motorist who also claimed to be a cyclist. He cut across me clipping the bike, knocking me off and later claimed he thought the flashing red light under my bum meant I was indicating left...
I leave you to draw your own conclusions as to how much of a "cyclist" he was.

I suppose the flashing red light under your butt could have just been a hazard warning. You have a curry that day? :shock:

Bicycler wrote:His misunderstanding is regrettable but understandable (the driver in the OP, not the one heeding Kwackers' flashing red underbum indicator :lol: ).

Firstly, the word cyclist can include many people who are not enthusiasts and/or only ride a bike occasionally.

I'm sure I read somewhere recently (Twitter?) that in the Netherlands they call occasional cyclists "people on bikes" not "cyclists' reserving that term for frequent / enthusiast riders. I could be misremembering though. Wouldn't be the first time.

Bicycler wrote:Furthermore, they will have registered how other cyclists ride submissively and how other drivers react to cyclists who are 'holding up traffic'. Finally, the idea of cyclists deliberately blocking cars from overtaking just seems wrong; it runs contrary to the general prioritisation of motor traffic flow and fits conveniently in with the stereotype of selfish cyclists ignoring the rules.

I wonder if it's time to bring back the Public Safety style videos. Things like the Green Cross Code, how to join traffic from a slip road (pet peeve of mine) and how to drive safely around cyclists (with emphasis on things like primary position not being a pig headed cyclist, just a safe one)
Weight 8th July 2015 111.9Kg : Weight now 93.8Kg. Mostly due to cycling. Wish I'd started much sooner :( #LoveTheBike

beardy
Posts: 3382
Joined: 23 Feb 2010, 4:10pm

Re: What Can You Do?

Postby beardy » 18 Nov 2015, 2:01pm

The adverts already exist, at least one good example from Chris Boardman.

Another in Scotland, though it was temporarily banned.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-25926572

GrumpyCyclist
Posts: 216
Joined: 7 Jul 2015, 9:05pm
Location: Bolton, UK

Re: What Can You Do?

Postby GrumpyCyclist » 18 Nov 2015, 2:03pm

beardy wrote:The adverts already exist, at least one good example from Chris Boardman.

Another in Scotland, though it was temporarily banned.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-25926572

Got to admit I've never seen any. Maybe this is a side effect of the DVR generation - we all skip the ads so wouldn't see them anyway. When I was a kid we didn't even have VCRs so adverts had to be sat through. Mostly.

edit: just read the article linked. No wonder things are bad if the ASA are saying things like "too far from the kerb" and "wasn't wearing a helmet" so it was deemed socially irresponsible. I'm fairly sure there's leaves in the guttering for a fair stretch in that thumbnail. So we're supposed to ride through potentially slippery leaves with god knows what under them? Good grief :(
Last edited by GrumpyCyclist on 18 Nov 2015, 2:08pm, edited 1 time in total.
Weight 8th July 2015 111.9Kg : Weight now 93.8Kg. Mostly due to cycling. Wish I'd started much sooner :( #LoveTheBike

beardy
Posts: 3382
Joined: 23 Feb 2010, 4:10pm

Re: What Can You Do?

Postby beardy » 18 Nov 2015, 2:08pm

I only said that they exist, I dont think that many are actually shown on TV, as I dont even have a TV I dont know about that.

Bmblbzzz
Posts: 3845
Joined: 18 May 2012, 7:56pm
Location: From here to there.

Re: What Can You Do?

Postby Bmblbzzz » 18 Nov 2015, 2:26pm

I think the majority of cyclists (people on bikes, bike users, riders, etc) whether enthusiast or pure transport, do not understand the concept of the 'door zone'.

Bicycler
Posts: 3400
Joined: 4 Dec 2013, 3:33pm

Re: What Can You Do?

Postby Bicycler » 18 Nov 2015, 2:31pm

GrumpyCyclist wrote:
Bicycler wrote:Firstly, the word cyclist can include many people who are not enthusiasts and/or only ride a bike occasionally.

I'm sure I read somewhere recently (Twitter?) that in the Netherlands they call occasional cyclists "people on bikes" not "cyclists' reserving that term for frequent / enthusiast riders. I could be misremembering though. Wouldn't be the first time.

'Person on bike' or 'POB' is a term some UK cycling enthusiasts use. I'm not a fan of it. It often tends to be used (or at least often comes across as being used) in a rather snobby and derogatory way. I don't like the idea that somebody needs to meet some criteria (other than riding a bike) before they are a cyclist.

The Dutch do the opposite and reserve the term cyclist (fietser) for normal people travelling by bike. A sports cyclist is something completely different, a 'wielrenner' (wheel runner). It says a lot about our different attitudes to cycling. https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2012 ... therlands/
and how cyclists are perceived https://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.c ... d-cyclist/

axel_knutt
Posts: 1597
Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 12:20pm

Re: What Can You Do?

Postby axel_knutt » 18 Nov 2015, 2:47pm

From time to time I've contemplated carrying a photocopy of Cyclecraft in my pannier, but you just know that the average motorist having a hissy fit is probably going to snatch it out of your hand and throw it on the ground. I sometimes wonder whether the DoT would be endorsing Cyclecraft at all if they had actually read what's in it.
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche

Bicycler
Posts: 3400
Joined: 4 Dec 2013, 3:33pm

Re: What Can You Do?

Postby Bicycler » 18 Nov 2015, 3:07pm

A lot of it is contained in the National Standard for Cycle Training, which it's fair to say the DfT will have read

GrumpyCyclist
Posts: 216
Joined: 7 Jul 2015, 9:05pm
Location: Bolton, UK

Re: What Can You Do?

Postby GrumpyCyclist » 18 Nov 2015, 3:29pm

axel_knutt wrote:From time to time I've contemplated carrying a photocopy of Cyclecraft in my pannier, but you just know that the average motorist having a hissy fit is probably going to snatch it out of your hand and throw it on the ground. I sometimes wonder whether the DoT would be endorsing Cyclecraft at all if they had actually read what's in it.

Or more likely these days, beat you to death with it :?
Weight 8th July 2015 111.9Kg : Weight now 93.8Kg. Mostly due to cycling. Wish I'd started much sooner :( #LoveTheBike

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mjr
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Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
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Re: What Can You Do?

Postby mjr » 18 Nov 2015, 5:12pm

sapperadam wrote:How on earth are motorists supposed to know the rules and guidelines when "supposed" cyclists don't?

Indeed - I notice that both sapperadam and the motorist seem to have forgotten Highway Code Rule 147, not to become agitated or involved with someone behaving badly on the road! ;-)
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

beardy
Posts: 3382
Joined: 23 Feb 2010, 4:10pm

Re: What Can You Do?

Postby beardy » 18 Nov 2015, 5:18pm

Getting agitated with or involved with another driver means with respect to your driving (or cycling) it doesnt mean that you can not pass the time of day chatting to them (or chatting them up) while waiting at the traffic lights.