Jeremny Vine a road rage victim

[The utility cyclist]

If somebody just made a fake shooting gesture at me during a road rage incident I would consider it a total non-event. If they actually shoved me or punched me that would be an event and any subsequent gestures would be petty inconsequential and not worthy of notice.

The Police Officer in your scenario wouldnt react because they felt threatened with assassination but because they had had their "office" disrespected.

I guess you don't live in a big city, one that has gang issues, a gun and knife problem worse than many parts of the US.
Wake up!!

[thirdcrank]

IMO, the issue here, which has already been raised above, is not the theoretical detail of the criminal law but its usual application, and the approach of the enforcement authorities in this case has been considerably more robust than the anecdotal evidence of posters on here and similar forums. There's a case for saying that if this was the normal approach to such cases, fewer might occur. There must have been decent evidence here: there's camera footage and JV will be an excellent witness (as noted by the judge) but there will be many other potentially excellent witnesses corroborated by footage who will have been fobbed off. It's hard to escape the conclusion that he's both famous and has direct access to publicity few others have. I'm reminded of the time when the Madeleys were stuck in snow on the motorway. Many others affected but arguably, it was Madeley sounding off on the telly that changed the Highways Agency's approach to gritting.

[661-Pete]

Like others I am rather uneasy about this case.

If it really does hinge on a joke 'gun' gesture - what of it? How many of us used to do that as kids, in the playground? Don't tell me you never played Cowboys-and-Indians! How can that be a threat? If the assailant brandishes a weapon, or manhandles the victim, or draws back a fist as if to punch them - then it's threatening behaviour.

So the high-profile of the 'victim' and - dare I say it? - the ethnicity of the assailant - did they have a bearing? Would the outcome have been different if, instead of the esteemed Mr Vine, it had been one of us 'plebs'? The antics of a certain Mr Andrew Mitchell, a few years back, spring to mind...

[Flinders]

[Is it not the case that lifting your hand to someone close up in a threatening manner (even if you don't 'connect') is technically still an assault? I thought it was, and that it only became assault and battery if you actually hit them. But I believe the law on assault in general did change a few years ago, so maybe I'm out of date (or just plain wrong). Anyone know?]

Edit: Actually, just looked it up on th CPS site, they say-

An assault is committed when a person intentionally or recklessly causes another to apprehend the immediate infliction of unlawful force.

A battery is committed when a person intentionally and recklessly applies unlawful force to another.



So you don't have to actually hit someone to commit assault.

[Vorpal]

In order to commit assault, the intention to inflict harm needs to be believable and immediate.

So, a raised fist, one foot from your face, is believable and immediate. A hand made into a gun shape could certainly be considered threatening in some circumstances, but I don't believe that it would generally be considered assault.

[661-Pete]

An assault is committed when a person intentionally or recklessly causes another to apprehend the immediate infliction of unlawful force.

I still don't see how a 'gun' gesture can be interpreted by anyone as intention to inflict unlawful force.

I seem to remember, a little while ago at a petrol station, I was perhaps a bit slow in paying, returning to my car and moving it forward. The driver of the car waiting behind me, evidently irritated, pointed his fingers to his forehead in a 'gun' gesture. I could only smile and gesture apologetically. No harm done!

[meic]

If somebody just made a fake shooting gesture at me during a road rage incident I would consider it a total non-event. If they actually shoved me or punched me that would be an event and any subsequent gestures would be petty inconsequential and not worthy of notice.

The Police Officer in your scenario wouldnt react because they felt threatened with assassination but because they had had their "office" disrespected.

I guess you don't live in a big city, one that has gang issues, a gun and knife problem worse than many parts of the US.
Wake up!!

Jeremy Vine "does" or at least he lives and commutes exactly where this happened, even at the time it happened. Now what was going through his mind?

This happened on Friday. I hate to overload our hard-working London police with footage from my commute, but I feel the person you see on the tape will at some point hurt someone very badly - either with her car or in a direct personal assault. See what you think.

The gang issues, gun crime and knife problem along with the threat to be shot by one of its street members seems to have, despite the terror of the situation, just slipped his mind.
Seems he is more concerned about some woman who might drive into somebody or get out and hit them.

[Flinders]

In order to commit assault, the intention to inflict harm needs to be believable and immediate.

So, a raised fist, one foot from your face, is believable and immediate. A hand made into a gun shape could certainly be considered threatening in some circumstances, but I don't believe that it would generally be considered assault.

I was making a general point about aggressive behaviour, not specifically about the gun.

[Flinders]

An assault is committed when a person intentionally or recklessly causes another to apprehend the immediate infliction of unlawful force.

I still don't see how a 'gun' gesture can be interpreted by anyone as intention to inflict unlawful force.

I seem to remember, a little while ago at a petrol station, I was perhaps a bit slow in paying, returning to my car and moving it forward. The driver of the car waiting behind me, evidently irritated, pointed his fingers to his forehead in a 'gun' gesture. I could only smile and gesture apologetically. No harm done!

I wasn't talking about the gun, which was why I didn't mention the word 'gun'. I was simply saying you don't have to actually hit someone for it to be assault.

[thirdcrank]

As I sail further into my seventies - my "eighth decade" makes it sound even worse - I sometimes worry about my memory, but some recent posters on this thread might do well to refresh theirs by referring to the start of this thread where it's clear that the suspect's alleged behaviour amounted to a public order offence in addition to the manner of driving. Putting aside the licence offence, which will have been discovered during the subsequent investigation of the vehicle and its driver, the initial allegations were of inconsiderate driving and threatening behaviour (which amounted to rather more than miming a gunshot.) From the reports which have been linked since this driver's conviction, that's pretty much what she's been prosecuted for and eventually convicted of, even if specific elements eg the gun gesture, have been emphasised more recently. In this case, the system seems to have worked. IMO.

(BTW, I've seen nothing to suggest that the defendant here was charged with assault.)

[PH]

I sometimes worry about my memory, but some recent posters on this thread might do well to refresh theirs by referring to the start of this thread where it's clear that the suspect's alleged behaviour amounted to a public order offence in addition to the manner of driving.

The BBC report says She was convicted of using threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour. .
I think that sums up what I saw in the video rather well.

[thirdcrank]

Sequel scheduled for 18 April.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-39125341

[MikeF]

"Pearson, who has a number of previous convictions including assaults and theft, had been warned she could be jailed as she was subject to a suspended sentence when the argument happened." Sort of "thing" that Operation Close Pass could pick up if other police forces used it.

[mercalia]

so she has lost her appeal and has been sent to prison for 9 months "dont pass go"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-39629808

[Bonefishblues]

There will be a whole load of people now going to jail, I expect.