Vehicles parked on cycle lanes

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thirdcrank
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Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Vehicles parked on cycle lanes

Postby thirdcrank » 23 Nov 2016, 1:54pm

karlt wrote:Thirdcrank is correct. ...

I thank you! :D

In addition to your social history, I'll offer a bit more on the legal side. I've mentioned the bill poster several times on here over the years. My knowledge of the background is greater than usual because when it was decided I was a subscriber to The Criminal Law Review (published by Sweet and Maxwell before Cap'n Bob injected more criminality :lol: ) and I was able to read it in detail.

The way most people find out about these significant cases is in a very abridged form in tomes like Stones Justices Manual although the internet has probably changed some things.

Under "unnecessary obstruction" it might include a number of cases with only the briefest summary of each eg: leaving vehicle partly on footway may be justified if obstruction is necessary and this reduces obstruction of carriageway.

Then there's the citation for anybody who wants to dig further - search for "loopholes."

There's a tendency for prosecutors to adopt the widest possible interpretation, without checking the facts of a case so parking with two wheels on the footway is legalised de facto overnight.

Terraced housing has been mentioned and it's a common legal fact that the freehold of the houses extends halfway across the street. Try telling anybody who "knows" they own the bit of street outside their house that highways and traffic legislation applies to them as much as anybody else. It was never an issue until car ownership mushroomed. Once upon a time, the streets of this terraced housing formed communal spaces but that all changed with a car outside every house eg complaints about street football, which everybody "knows" is illegal (but only concerns them if they think their car will be damaged.)

Annoying Twit
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Location: Leicester

Re: RE: Re: Vehicles parked on cycle lanes

Postby Annoying Twit » 23 Nov 2016, 4:23pm

millimole wrote:
Annoying Twit wrote:Millimole: is this a general Leicester thing, or specific to Anstey?

No, this was in the Blaby DC area - but it's everywhere!

Flushed down the thunderbox : my stupid phone.


I'm not sure what 'DC' means, but I presume that you mean Blaby council, rather than the city council.

I live in the city (near the Catholic school on Anstey Lane). I've submitted a question concerning pavement parking as part of my ticket ballot for 'Mayor's Question Time'. http://www.leicester.gov.uk/your-counci ... and-events I'll see if my application is successful, and of course then I have to see if I'm selected to ask my question.

If I was evil I would wear punk clothing with metal bits and brush cars as I walked past. Unfortunately, in this circumstance, I'm not evil.

Bicycler
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Re: Vehicles parked on cycle lanes

Postby Bicycler » 23 Nov 2016, 4:29pm

mjr wrote:When does a cycle lane become a cycle track? When there are kerbs? When there are posts? When there's a cycle track order made?

It's far from clear from the definitions but it seems that a lane is part of the carriageway whereas a track is segregated. The necessity for TROs to implement parking restrictions suggests that cycle lanes are not cycle tracks. No order is needed for the council to convert a pavement to a cycle track under the Highways Act 1980. Cycle Track Orders are required for converting footpaths away from roads under the Cycle Tracks Act 1984 (IIRC). I'd say that roadside cycle track status is determined by being not a part of the carriageway and marked out as a cycle track eg. with paint and signs.

stork
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Re: Vehicles parked on cycle lanes

Postby stork » 23 Nov 2016, 8:33pm

Bicycler wrote:
mjr wrote:When does a cycle lane become a cycle track? When there are kerbs? When there are posts? When there's a cycle track order made?

It's far from clear from the definitions but it seems that a lane is part of the carriageway whereas a track is segregated.


I think that's probably the intention. The definitions are a mess, and certainly the definition of 'cycle track' in the Road Traffic Act looks like it could include on-carriageway cycle lanes, but as you say the other legislation then wouldn't make sense.

It does beg the question of the status of a cycle lane with light segregation, i.e. effectively part of the carriageway which has been marked as separate not just with a line but with kerbstones, armadillos, bollards etc. It could be either or both (a cycle lane and/or cycle track). But if we can't be clear what it is, then we can't be clear what laws apply, in which case there might as well not be any laws as they can't be enforced.

sirmy
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Re: Vehicles parked on cycle lanes

Postby sirmy » 25 Nov 2016, 7:08pm

"The TSRGD only give effect to a prohibition on driving/riding a vehicle other than a pedal cycle in the lane. They don't prohibit parking there."

Section 12 (3) (a - e) gives the circumstances in which a vehicle may enter a mandatory cycle lane -

"(2) Subject to sub-paragraphs (3) to (5), the marking conveys the requirement that a vehicle, other than a pedal cycle, must not be driven, or ridden, in the cycle lane during the cycle lane’s hours of operation (which may be all the time).

(3) Sub-paragraph (2) does not prohibit a vehicle from crossing into the part of the carriageway reserved for pedal cycles, or straddling the marking, if it is safe and necessary to do so—

(a)in order to pass a stationary vehicle;

(b)to enable the vehicle to enter, from the side of the road on which it is proceeding, land or premises adjacent to the length of road on which the line is placed, or another road joining that road;

(c)due to circumstances outside the control of the driver;

(d)in order to avoid an accident; or

(e)for the purpose of complying with any direction of a constable in uniform or a traffic warden."

Anything not in this list is, therefore, an offence and that would include parking or stopping in a mandatory cycle lane

PRL
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Location: Richmond upon Thames

Re: Vehicles parked on cycle lanes

Postby PRL » 25 Nov 2016, 9:14pm

Pity that councils do not, as a matter of course, install orcas in mandatory cycle lanes . That would deter driving into them to park.
http://www.rediweldtraffic.co.uk/produc ... e-product/

Bicycler
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Re: Vehicles parked on cycle lanes

Postby Bicycler » 26 Nov 2016, 1:37pm

sirmy wrote:Anything not in this list is, therefore, an offence and that would include parking or stopping in a mandatory cycle lane

The prohibition of riding or driving in cycle lanes would indeed appear to prohibit parking in them. Though Thirdcrank has detailed above how the similar prohibition of driving or riding on pavements has, in recent times, been deemed not to apply to those driving onto them in order to park.

thirdcrank
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Re: Vehicles parked on cycle lanes

Postby thirdcrank » 26 Nov 2016, 3:12pm

I've checked mjr's TSRGD 2016 link which, at first reading* does seem to say that driving in a mandatory with flow cycle lane is in itself an offence. The crunch bit is actually in the next paragraph - on the next page - after that opened by the link.

1.—(1) Subject to sub-paragraph (2), section 36 of the 1988 Act applies to the sign.
(2) Sub-paragraph (1) applies to the sign provided for at item 7 of the Part 6 sign table only where that marking is used to indicate the boundary of a mandatory with‑flow cycle lane during the cycle lane’s hours of operation (which may be all the time).


http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016 ... aph/1/made

It is an offence under s36 of the RTA 1988 for a driver (including a cyclist where appropriate) to fail to conform with traffic signs. (Lines etc., painted on the road are signs in this context.)

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/36

The title of s 36 sounds wider than it is, in that only specified signs are covered and without ploughing back through the links to my earlier posts, I'm pretty sure that mandatory cycle lanes were not previously included, which is presumably why the OP's HC link refers to any yellow lines as the reason for no parking. It seems clear from the above that they now are included, which must be a GOOD THING as the saying goes.

These new TSRGD form a significant tidying up exercise which is probably long overdue. Things like the various pedestrian crossing regs are now all under one roof. I don't know if the HC as quoted by the OP is current, presumably it is, and if so, like my expired understanding it needs updating.

Re mandatory cycle lanes, the suggestion that they might usefully replace yellow lines as a way of banning parking made by somebody above is an intriguing one but whether any of this will lead to greater enforcement is another matter altogether. One of the economies to be made by the police not prioritising traffic enforcement is in the reduced budget for training in a very detailed subject. It's difficult to enforce regulations effectively if you don't know in detail what they are and that's assuming you are deployed to enforce them. OTOH, if somebody gets a ticket and wants to fight it, there's plenty of time for the details to be pored over for the exceptions. Since the regs include the possibility of part-time mandatory cycle lanes, I presume that a TRO is still required to create the lane.

* "... at first reading." that's not to cast doubt on that interpretation, just to say that somebody else may know better. Exceptions tend not to dressed up in hi-viz togs.

Pete Owens
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Re: Vehicles parked on cycle lanes

Postby Pete Owens » 26 Nov 2016, 8:57pm

PRL wrote:Pity that councils do not, as a matter of course, install orcas in mandatory cycle lanes . That would deter driving into them to park.
http://www.rediweldtraffic.co.uk/produc ... e-product/

It is bad enough painting a line at the sort of position you might want to ride on the road - without installing the sort of thing that could throw you off your bike if you get uppity ideas about leaving the gutter.

thirdcrank
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Re: Vehicles parked on cycle lanes

Postby thirdcrank » 26 Nov 2016, 9:08pm

Bearing in mind how quite high kerbs have little deterrent effect on pavement parkers, it's not easy to see how spaced quasi-kerbs might be more effective. Even if they are named after some sort of shark.

As a PS to my earlier post, if anybody decides to report any cases, failure to comply with a traffic sign is an offence requiring an NIP.

karlt
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Re: Vehicles parked on cycle lanes

Postby karlt » 28 Nov 2016, 12:08am

Point of order - orcas are dolphins, mammals, not sharks which are fish. They're more closely related to you and me than they are to a Great White.

thirdcrank
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Re: Vehicles parked on cycle lanes

Postby thirdcrank » 28 Nov 2016, 7:10am

karlt wrote:Point of order - ....


To be precise, you are raising a point of information. :wink:

Vorpal
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Re: Vehicles parked on cycle lanes

Postby Vorpal » 28 Nov 2016, 9:09am

karlt wrote:Point of order - orcas are dolphins, mammals, not sharks which are fish. They're more closely related to you and me than they are to a Great White.

And those parking in cycle lanes are more closely related to sharks? ;)
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

karlt
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Re: Vehicles parked on cycle lanes

Postby karlt » 28 Nov 2016, 9:49am

thirdcrank wrote:
karlt wrote:Point of order - ....


To be precise, you are raising a point of information. :wink:


Touché

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johntea
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Re: Vehicles parked on cycle lanes

Postby johntea » 29 Nov 2016, 10:31pm

We've all got it wrong... Cycle lanes aren't for cyclists, they are there to provide a safe place for motorists to wash their car wheels

This was what I had to contend with today

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