Coroner blames headphones

[nez]

sorry 'she'.


I'm a trendy consumer. Just look at my wobbly bog brush using hovercraft full of eels

[nez]

One thing that stuck out from the newspaper report for me was:

Ms Norton’s 18speed Carrera racing cycle was found in its lowest gear

Lowest gear on an 18 speed is going to be pretty low so suggests a pretty low speed. Sometimes you get a steep hill just before a junction, so a quick look at that map to see where the accident happened - which shows that Flatgate is as unhilly as its name suggests, and more significantly has no roundabout on the three different sources I looked at.

http://road.cc/content/news/213510-list ... ys-coroner gives the location as Hull Road, which has a roundabout.

It also says "She was seen to enter the roundabout at speed as she rode at the side of the lorry and the wobble as the road began to narrow" and "at speed" doesn't tally with "lowest gear".

I can guess at explanations for these discrepancies, but it doesn't leave me with much faith in the accuracy of the piece as a whole.

Accuracy of the piece, or accuracy of the coroner's court?

dunno why youd be in the lowest of 18 gears. Howden is as flat as a pancake


I'm a trendy consumer. Just look at my wobbly bog brush using hovercraft full of eels

[meic]

The Coroner was Professor PAUL Marks.
I think that you were right first time, especially as I googled him to see what his qualifications were.

[nez]

oops. Thanks. Comes of reading on a phone. I did once know a coroner and he was an able and highly intelligent man who knew his limitations. ☹️

[tykeboy2003]

Radio 4 has extensive form when it comes to discussing cycling*

Shocking "reporting".

The BBC is beginning to sound just like The Sun.

[NATURAL ANKLING]

Hi,
"Tour De Celeb" last night ch5 episode 2.
Hilarious (only seen half so far), but it does highlight some of the failings of some one who did not grow up on a bike and see it today as a novelty.

I had several incidents today on a 40 mile ride, which I know would scare the life out of some, mostly cars and cyclist on wrong side.
I do not know the experience of the sad soul we are talking about, so its not directed at them.

I just think today that the training you would need would probably take half a lifetime to gain, and that's not how I got it, cars were a minority in my childhood so there was plenty of room to learn, today its still for the brave or you learn quick even on your first outing.

Stay sharp Guys.

[gbnz]

I was disappointed by the reporting of this on radio 4 last night. Eddie Mair continually tried to bully a woman representing some cycling body into saying that headphones should be banned. Mr Mair also said that the Coroner had specifically blamed the headphones when he had said no such thing (he wasn't picked up on this by either of the interviewees).

Terrible lazy reporting by the BBC. We look to the BBC to provide an unbiased and accurate account of the news, they failed miserably in this case. Most listeners will now be convinced that headphones should be banned and the cyclist effectively committed suicide.

Have to admit I too was disappointed by the sentiments expressed on Radio 4 last night by Eddie Mair. The impression left was that this cyclist and cyclists generally are responsible for their accidents involving vehicles and don't help by wearing headphones.

[wearwell]

Not blaming her at all but TBH it seems to me that cycling and wearing headphones is insane.
If she had been merely deaf she would at least have not had the distraction of music.
Deafness isn't seen as a handicap for drivers - but being distracted by mobile phones is rightly seen as criminal.
Is listening via headphones somewhere in between perhaps? Choosing to not hear the external world (to be deaf) and being distracted by music?

[landsurfer]

she could have been daydreaming or the lorry driver could have been listening to a radio.

I believe the lorry driver was wholly exonerated, why are we trying to attach blame to him ..... ?

[Bez]

If she had been merely deaf she would at least have not had the distraction of music.

That begs the question of whether music is a distraction. Research found that surgeons who listened to self-selected music had better performance, which rather suggests that it can have quite the opposite effect.

Deafness isn't seen as a handicap for drivers - but being distracted by mobile phones is rightly seen as criminal.
Is listening via headphones somewhere in between perhaps? Choosing to not hear the external world (to be deaf) and being distracted by music?

Again, we can probably discount distraction by music. In any case, we're socially entirely tolerant of people listening to it when they're in charge of vehicles of up to 44 tonnes, so it's quite perverse for us to be intolerant of people listening to it when they're in charge of a 10kg vehicle. Furthermore, a driver hears less of the outside world through a car and its windows than does a cyclist through headphones.

If we suddenly decide, in the face of evidence to the contrary, that music is inherently distracting, then we should probably go back and review a lot of inquests relating to car crashes.

Using a mobile phone, which involves multiple aspects of interaction and is inherently cognitively distracting and has been robustly shown to have a significant detrimental effect, is a very different thing indeed.

More:

http://beyondthekerb.org.uk/2014/11/05/ ... f-science/

[The utility cyclist]

she could have been daydreaming or the lorry driver could have been listening to a radio.

I believe the lorry driver was wholly exonerated, why are we trying to attach blame to him ..... ?

That blaming the cyclist for her demise due to her listening to music is the hot fashion at this moment in time.
We only have his word on the events as to his actions, so if he was listening to his radio/cd or whatever 'distracted' which is what is absolutely being inferred by the coroner and everyone else is the root cause of the cyclists death then he possibly could have done something if he weren't, or not done something, like for instance see someone make a minor error in judgement and be able to react if he weren't distracted listening to the radio or not driving such a wide line into the lane (as mentioned elsewhere the lane markings pull motorists into a mickey poor line)

Rewritten as if the coroner was making guesses about the actions of the HGV driver...
"I cannot determine if he was listening to music at the time, but if he had been, it could have caused a distraction and could have contributed to the cause of the accident"
See the point?

[landsurfer]

no ... I really don't ......which is sad ....but honest...
I have read the press and the posts on here ... i don't think music had anything to do with her demise ... or earphones or Apple Devices .... She probably made a mistake .....
In 1978 i made a mistake, there was an investigation, people where interviewed, .... but my injuries where totally as a result of my mistake ... it happens.
There is not always someone else to blame........

[tykeboy2003]

Have to admit I too was disappointed by the sentiments expressed on Radio 4 last night by Eddie Mair. The impression left was that this cyclist and cyclists generally are responsible for their accidents involving vehicles and don't help by wearing headphones.

Quite. I used to like Eddie Mair....

I've written to Points Of View, repeating most of my earlier posting, I don't expect that it will have any effect.

[wearwell]

If she had been merely deaf she would at least have not had the distraction of music.

That begs the question of whether music is a distraction. Research found that surgeons who listened to self-selected music had better performance, which rather suggests that it can have quite the opposite effect.
......

Not if the surgeon needed to actually hear something as part of the procedure.

For a cyclist, listening is very much part of the diagnosis of road conditions, movement and position of other vehicles. Choosing not to be able to hear does not seem sensible.

In a vehicle it's not so relevant but then you also have 3 mirrors - or more if they are split. And you are highly visible and well protected from damage.

[Vorpal]

Not if the surgeon needed to actually hear something as part of the procedure.

For a cyclist, listening is very much part of the diagnosis of road conditions, movement and position of other vehicles. Choosing not to be able to hear does not seem sensible.

In a vehicle it's not so relevant but then you also have 3 mirrors - or more if they are split. And you are highly visible and well protected from damage.

Very few headphones block out noise. Personally, I wouldn't listen to music whilst cycling for several reasons, but I do think it should be left to individual choice. People should be sufficiently self aware to understand whether music is likely to be a distraction for them.
In a motor vehicle, it is more relevant. They are in charge of a large piece of machinery that can kill other people, if they make an error.