Residents parking

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Bowedw
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Residents parking

Postby Bowedw » 1 Jan 2017, 10:20pm

Most of the streets in our villages and towns seem to have the width that should be available to Cyclist taken over by residents parking. While I appreciate the difficulty for some properties a considerable number of streets have rear access and others have a neglected area to the front of house that could provide parking. My own daughter who actually has a drive and ample parking leaves her car on the road and she is also a keen Cyclist.
There are several roads on my way home that I have up hills that I am constantly having to put in a greater effort that need be or risk the complete wrath of impatient drivers.
Personally I have always placed a high importance on living in a house with off road parking but some families do not have any qualms of leaving several cars on the road even when they have their own space to park.

Vorpal
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Re: Residents parking

Postby Vorpal » 2 Jan 2017, 8:39am

There are some places where cars parked on the street has the advantage of slowing traffic down. I used to use a couple of roads like that. Others, parking either causes congestion, or simply takes up space better used by traffic (including pedal cyclists). But that said, people feel very protective of their parking.

I was discussing this with Mr. V the other day. His parents' town (more large village, really) has an old street, with overhanging medieval houses leading out of town. It is made single lane by parking because none of the houses have off-street parking. The consqeuence of that is congestion every morning and evening for approximately two hours. This has reduced the value of the lovely old listed buildings in a town know for them.

There are two, maybe three, places where residents' car parks could be built, such that all houses have off-street parking within ~500 metres. Even though I suggested that they would still be able to park in front of their houses for drop-off and collection only (30 minute limit no deliveries between 7:15 & 9:15, or 15:30 and 17:30, or whatever the local council decides is appropriate), yet Mr. V and his brother argued that having no street parking would damage the property value more than the congestion does.

I think it's a bit silly, really. People cope just fine without parking next to the house in other countries. The Dutch and Danes design new housing estates that way. They have remote parking and pedestrian / pedal cycle / access only roads trhoughout the estate. People are allowed to drive to the houses to drop off groceries, make large deliveries, etc, but not otherwise. All parking is remote, but typically wihtin a few hundred metres.
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BakfietsUK
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Re: Residents parking

Postby BakfietsUK » 2 Jan 2017, 9:18am

I am not a fan of the idea of using parked cars as traffic calming as I find that I am in greater danger of vehicles coming toward me on the wrong side of the road. Sure, they should give way if the obstruction is their side, but they don't in any number. The result is I feel less safe, so my view is that it is not appropriate to use roads as car parks. Traffic should be "calmed" by either taking uncalm drivers off the road and enforcing speed limits.

Round my way if you have a house away from the road, you just drive your car over the grassed area until it gets too muddy to do anything with but pave it over. So estates built with open, light and airy spaces, just end up becoming a massive unsightly car park. This usually at an inordinate expense that deprives funds to other arguably more pressing needs.

I think those who live their may agree that Portsmouth has something of an issue with on street parking availability. Residential roads that have been designated as "safe" cycle routes involve conflict and aggravation for all those who either live in them or use them. Too many cars in not enough space, now where have we heard that before.

Are we being serious if we accept that it is perfectly OK to have 3 cars per household, maybe I have got it wrong, but it just seems deeply perverse to me. In my fantasy world you would not be authorised to buy a car if you could not prove there was space to store it. I guess I am deluded, let's see.

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squeaker
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Re: Residents parking

Postby squeaker » 2 Jan 2017, 9:52am

BakfietsUK wrote:In my fantasy world you would not be authorised to buy a car if you could not prove there was space to store it. I guess I am deluded, let's see.
As in some Japanese cities (hence the 'K' car phenomenon)?
The current use of road space for permanent car parking in the UK shows a complete lack of common sense, IMHO :roll:
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Psamathe
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Re: Residents parking

Postby Psamathe » 2 Jan 2017, 10:25am

I find it strange that planners approve development with no off-street parking as it means the public purse then effectively has to provide the parking (on-road). And the cost of making road parking is much higher (on the public purse) than it would be for the developer (lost profit) as the build cost/quality of road surface is much higher than that of a private driveway.

If a 2-way road is required and built then that is what was wanted. Why establish the need for, design and build a 2-way road and then get a single track road.

Strikes me that on-road parking is effectively just the public providing and paying for parking where the developer decides to squeeze more houses in.

(I can appreciate there are historical situations as pointed out by Vorpal above, but there must often be other solutions e.g. off-road parking area nearby - might not suit the residents but then why should the public purse provide their parking and suffer the consequences of restricted roads).

Ian

MikeF
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Re: Residents parking

Postby MikeF » 2 Jan 2017, 10:34am

The problem is we are reaching the stage where there are more cars than room to put them. Cars are now parked on any available space to put them, be that grass verges, pavements, or paved front gardens.
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master

pete75
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Re: Residents parking

Postby pete75 » 2 Jan 2017, 10:41am


jgurney
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Re: Residents parking

Postby jgurney » 2 Jan 2017, 11:32am

I'm a bit puzzled over how the current situation developed.

At the start of the 20th century it seems it was clear that roads could not be used for storing vehicles while their owners were at home. Vehicles (mainly horse-drawn and cycles at the time) could be left standing in a highway "in the course of a journey" (e.g. while calling somewhere away from home) provided this did not unreasonably obstruct the free passage of the said highway. However it was established that "the king's highway is not to be used as a stableyard" i.e. once the owner was at home rather than in the course of a journey their vehicle must be stored off the public highway. In practice this seems to have rarely been a problem as those wealthy enough to own vehicles generally owned somewhere where they could be kept and in any case did not usually wish to leave such valuable property lying about in public, vulnerable to any accident or to any thief or vandal.

As far as I can tell Parliament has never actually negated this rule. It has simply become increasingly disregarded.
While I do not know the sequence of events (can anyone enlighten me?) I wonder if when cars became cheaper people who did not have anywhere to put them took to buying them and leaving them in the street, and the powers that be wished to appeal to the votes of that demographic group, motor traders who wished to improve sales exerted local influence, and those who were the worst affected were reluctant to complain about their neighbours.

thirdcrank
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Re: Residents parking

Postby thirdcrank » 2 Jan 2017, 12:27pm

jgurney wrote:I'm a bit puzzled over how the current situation developed.


The broad answer is in the next bit of your own post.

At the start of the 20th century it seems it was clear that roads could not be used for storing vehicles while their owners were at home. Vehicles (mainly horse-drawn and cycles at the time) could be left standing in a highway "in the course of a journey" (e.g. while calling somewhere away from home) provided this did not unreasonably obstruct the free passage of the said highway. However it was established that "the king's highway is not to be used as a stableyard" i.e. once the owner was at home rather than in the course of a journey their vehicle must be stored off the public highway. In practice this seems to have rarely been a problem as those wealthy enough to own vehicles generally owned somewhere where they could be kept and in any case did not usually wish to leave such valuable property lying about in public, vulnerable to any accident or to any thief or vandal.


The legal principle to which you refer was decided by legal precedents: the decisions of the courts.

As far as I can tell Parliament has never actually negated this rule.


Parliament has passed various bits of legislation controlling the "parking" of motor vehicles and the courts (and more recently parking adjudicators) have interpreted that legislation. I've posted endlessly about this before - "unnecessary obstruction" may be a search term.

The legal justification for this is partly that the law adapts to changing circumstances.

On a practical point, there's little to be gained in getting het up because it will only get worse. Younger riders can look forward to a time when cyclists will be the only people moving on the roads. We're pretty close already in some parts of the country.

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Re: Residents parking

Postby Vorpal » 2 Jan 2017, 12:55pm

thirdcrank wrote:On a practical point, there's little to be gained in getting het up because it will only get worse. Younger riders can look forward to a time when cyclists will be the only people moving on the roads. We're pretty close already in some parts of the country.

I have been imrpessed (and depressed) at how much traffic has increased the last couple of years in the UK. As I no longer live there, I see the increases in longer intervals, and the difference the last couple of years is noticeable. When I first moved away, the increase, if there was one, didn't seem significant in terms of queues and congestion. Maybe it reached some kind of tipping point, though because the difference was noticeable when we visited for Christmas.

Going round the M25 in the middle of the day on the Tuesday after Christmas (27th dec.), the traffic was like ~10 years ago at typical weekday peak time. I guess it was a combination of roadworks, replacement bus service on Greater East Anglia, and shopping traffic. :( But it still seemed remarkeably bad to me. Our journey took half again longer than expected.

On A roads in Essex and Suffolk, I saw congestion in a couple of places where I never had before, even driving there nearly every day, and that was on the days between Christmas and New Years. What must it be like on a busier weekday?

I guess a benefit is also the increasing numbers of cyclists I observed, and a new (3 years old) cycle shop thriving in a town that hasn't had one since the 70s.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
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thirdcrank
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Re: Residents parking

Postby thirdcrank » 2 Jan 2017, 1:20pm

Just on the subject of how the law on obstruction of the highway and related topics has been "developed" since the invention of the motor vehicle, finding the relevant decided cases in a coherent form is not cheap. The universally recognised source is Wilkinson's, but not as in "hardware and DIY shop." Wilkinson's Road Traffic Offences is a good starting point at 3 or 4 hundred quid depending on where you buy (Make sure you get the 27th edition because earlier versions are being sold full-price online.)

https://www.sweetandmaxwell.co.uk/Pract ... 9&family=2

From the same publisher, Encyclopedia of Road Traffic Law and Practice at around £1800 seems a bit pricey just to find out why people seem to park where they like.

http://www.sweetandmaxwell.co.uk/Catalo ... cordid=593

In the days when the police devoted more resources to traffic policing, around here we had the police driving school at Crofton near Wakefield. As well as driver training, they taught specialist courses on road traffic law and maintained a detailed database on traffic law. Not any more.

Nowadays, I fancy the customer base for Wilkinson's and similar publications consists largely of those learned friends whose companies form the first few hundred hits if you google <notice of intended prosecution> <exceptional hardship> or, as in this case <unnecessary obstruction.>

xerxes
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Re: Residents' parking

Postby xerxes » 2 Jan 2017, 1:35pm

People seem to think they have a right to park on the road. Walk an extra 50 yards? Shock horror!

In my area they were up in arms when the council proposed a trifling charge for residents' parking permits. I pointed out that if they bought a house with off-street parking they would be paying out much more in terms of cost of the house, and also likely much more to the council in the form of increased community charge band.

Increasingly we find more and more roads converted to one-way streets to allow for car parking. This inconveniences all road users, and increases pollution in causing motorists to make diversions around the one way system.

thirdcrank
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Re: Residents parking

Postby thirdcrank » 2 Jan 2017, 4:42pm

I've googled to try to find something authoritative on the general subject, for anybody who is interested, but not so interested as to shell out for a copy of Wilkinson's.

Here's a fairly light-hearted but balanced discussion of obstruction from a solicitor and it even includes a bit more detail on the "King's highway is not a stable" judgment.

http://www.nicholashancox.co.uk/highway_obstruction.htm

Here's a parliamentary briefing note:

http://www.roadswerenotbuiltforcars.com ... N01170.pdf

Unfortunately, it seems to conflate on-street parking and pavement parking (when I take pavement to mean "footway" ) It also includes the point that I've made before without convincing the doubters that

There is no national prohibition against on-street or ‘pavement’ parking except in relation to heavy commercial vehicles.


I think it's useful towards the end where it details legislation which was passed but not activated.

Finally, although the search hits include one for the CPS guidance on "unnecessary obstruction,2 when I followed the link it went to Road Traffic Offences where there no longer seems to be any reference to this offence.

MikeF
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Re: Residents parking

Postby MikeF » 2 Jan 2017, 5:04pm

thirdcrank wrote:On a practical point, there's little to be gained in getting het up because it will only get worse. Younger riders can look forward to a time when cyclists will be the only people moving on the roads. We're pretty close already in some parts of the country.

That's fine until the likes of Chris Grayling start opening car doors without looking.
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master

brynpoeth
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Re: Residents' parking

Postby brynpoeth » 2 Jan 2017, 5:30pm

xerxes wrote:People seem to think they have a right to park on the road. Walk an extra 50 yards? Shock horror!

In my area they were up in arms when the council proposed a trifling charge for residents' parking permits. I pointed out that if they bought a house with off-street parking they would be paying out much more in terms of cost of the house, and also likely much more to the council in the form of increased community charge band.

Increasingly we find more and more roads converted to one-way streets to allow for car parking. This inconveniences all road users, and increases pollution in causing motorists to make diversions around the one way system.



In Germany many one-way streets have an exemption for cyclists who may use them in the "wrong" direction. Seems much too dangerous to me. I prefer to take a longer route, leave my bike on the edge of town and walk instead. Walking is a nice change, sometimes I think I should cycle a bit less and walk a bit more.
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