Residents parking

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pete75
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Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Residents parking

Postby pete75 » 3 Jan 2017, 9:09pm

Bmblbzzz wrote:
jgurney wrote:I'm a bit puzzled over how the current situation developed.

At the start of the 20th century it seems it was clear that roads could not be used for storing vehicles while their owners were at home. Vehicles (mainly horse-drawn and cycles at the time) could be left standing in a highway "in the course of a journey" (e.g. while calling somewhere away from home) provided this did not unreasonably obstruct the free passage of the said highway. However it was established that "the king's highway is not to be used as a stableyard" i.e. once the owner was at home rather than in the course of a journey their vehicle must be stored off the public highway. In practice this seems to have rarely been a problem as those wealthy enough to own vehicles generally owned somewhere where they could be kept and in any case did not usually wish to leave such valuable property lying about in public, vulnerable to any accident or to any thief or vandal.

As far as I can tell Parliament has never actually negated this rule. It has simply become increasingly disregarded.
While I do not know the sequence of events (can anyone enlighten me?) I wonder if when cars became cheaper people who did not have anywhere to put them took to buying them and leaving them in the street, and the powers that be wished to appeal to the votes of that demographic group, motor traders who wished to improve sales exerted local influence, and those who were the worst affected were reluctant to complain about their neighbours.

There's your answer in a nutshell; virtually every household is much richer now than then and even poor households can afford a car.


Then perhaps they should use some of those riches to buy a property with a garage and/or driveway to park their car.

Bmblbzzz
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Re: Residents parking

Postby Bmblbzzz » 3 Jan 2017, 9:30pm

That's another aspect of the problem; not only are cars cheaper relative to income but houses are more expensive. It's a multifaceted problem, which we aren't addressing very well.

irc
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Re: Residents parking

Postby irc » 3 Jan 2017, 10:25pm

pete75 wrote:
Bmblbzzz wrote:There's your answer in a nutshell; virtually every household is much richer now than then and even poor households can afford a car.


Then perhaps they should use some of those riches to buy a property with a garage and/or driveway to park their car.


You can't retro fit more land onto Victorian tenement streets. When many inner cities were built there was no street or house electric lighting. No fridges,freezers, TVs, computers, hi-fis or for 99% of the population cars. So there is no garages or off street parking.

So the existing roads need to be managed. Residents permits are one way. I think they work well. The schemes around here are not exclusive to residents. They are meter controlled for non residents. Seems a reasonable compromise to me. Residents of streets which only exist because their houses were built there can park in them at an annual price. Short term parking is available to everyone. Free parking to commuters from anywhere is not available. Commutes to city centres being incidentally often the easiest journeys to do by public transport.

andrewk
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Re: Residents parking

Postby andrewk » 3 Jan 2017, 11:30pm

blackbike wrote:If on road parking is to be allowed on a street it should be available to everyone who can find a space, not reserved for people who just happen to live in houses on that street.

I see no good reason why councils should make parking easier for some people and harder for others. They should only control parking for reasons like stopping obstruction of traffic, not to give preferential access to public road space to a minority of people.


Guaranteed to NOT be elected were you to contest council elections.

pete75
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Re: Residents parking

Postby pete75 » 3 Jan 2017, 11:49pm

irc wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Bmblbzzz wrote:There's your answer in a nutshell; virtually every household is much richer now than then and even poor households can afford a car.


Then perhaps they should use some of those riches to buy a property with a garage and/or driveway to park their car.


You can't retro fit more land onto Victorian tenement streets. When many inner cities were built there was no street or house electric lighting. No fridges,freezers, TVs, computers, hi-fis or for 99% of the population cars. So there is no garages or off street parking.



Yes so introduce permits to own cars with each property. No off road parking no permit no car. It would lead to a welcome reduction in car ownership, freeing up of road space, a reduction in congestion and get a lot of older, more polluting cars off the road because it would disproportionately affect those on lower incomes - particularly beneficial in inner city areas because of the consequent improvement in people's health.

irc
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Location: glasgow

Re: Residents parking

Postby irc » 4 Jan 2017, 12:22am

pete75 wrote:
irc wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Then perhaps they should use some of those riches to buy a property with a garage and/or driveway to park their car.


You can't retro fit more land onto Victorian tenement streets. When many inner cities were built there was no street or house electric lighting. No fridges,freezers, TVs, computers, hi-fis or for 99% of the population cars. So there is no garages or off street parking.



Yes so introduce permits to own cars with each property. No off road parking no permit no car. It would lead to a welcome reduction in car ownership, freeing up of road space, a reduction in congestion and get a lot of older, more polluting cars off the road because it would disproportionately affect those on lower incomes - particularly beneficial in inner city areas because of the consequent improvement in people's health.


The residents (mostly) want their on road parking schemes. They vote. The local councilors listen to them. Scheme implemented. Democracy. Roads are a public resource. Most local residents support on road parking permit schemes. And they work. No need for compulsory off road parking.

Tangled Metal
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Re: Residents parking

Postby Tangled Metal » 4 Jan 2017, 8:46am

Well I'd appreciate a parking permit scheme on my road. There's one car per household if you match space to houses with spare capacity at the end of the road (near my house).

Restricting work's vehicles is a fair option IMHO. They're excessively large for the street and being a business vehicle in a residential area doesn't make sense to me.

Would you agree to a flat bed truck parking in your street for example? I nearly bought a house once but withdrew offer after i saw the builder's merchant truck parked on the street. With my later working hours i would always have ended up parking 500m+ away from my house as a result. There were 4 houses with 4 car sized parking spaces. Nearest available street parking 500+m away. Madness!

Right to park on street? No but how many other things happen without a legal right written into law expressly permitting it? Are you legally allowed to chain your bike to a bike stand or railings? Show me that regulation that applies to the country. Non-starter the rights argument IMHO.

Cars are part of modern life for a significant proportion of the population. Face that fact. Face the fact that there isn't a perfect solution to storage of cars. Face the fact that cyclists get on with the current status and use their bikes on countless million miles of riding a year without on street parking being a deal breaker. If you don't like it lobby your councillor. Or whinge on a cycling forum. I'll continue to use my car, cycle or public transport to get around as appropriate to my needs and store the car as near to my house as the town planners allow. There's no other choice at this time so I'll get on with my life.

Psamathe
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Re: Residents parking

Postby Psamathe » 4 Jan 2017, 9:59am

blackbike wrote:If on road parking is to be allowed on a street it should be available to everyone who can find a space, not reserved for people who just happen to live in houses on that street.

I see no good reason why councils should make parking easier for some people and harder for others. They should only control parking for reasons like stopping obstruction of traffic, not to give preferential access to public road space to a minority of people.

I would agree. We all pay for it (some pay both for the roads AND their own off-street parking) so it seems a bit unfair that some who pay are excluded from using it just because the house has more cars than they have parking for (normally their choice of house, their choice of cars).

Ian

thirdcrank
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Re: Residents parking

Postby thirdcrank » 4 Jan 2017, 10:39am

Let's imagine some politician wanted to end their career in a blaze of glory that would make the poll tax disturbances seem tame. Banning on-street residential parking would be a pretty good possibility. :lol:

Zigster
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Re: Residents parking

Postby Zigster » 4 Jan 2017, 12:17pm

squeaker wrote:
BakfietsUK wrote:In my fantasy world you would not be authorised to buy a car if you could not prove there was space to store it. I guess I am deluded, let's see.
As in some Japanese cities (hence the 'K' car phenomenon)?
The current use of road space for permanent car parking in the UK shows a complete lack of common sense, IMHO :roll:


My bigger gripe is the use of the footpaths for parking. A number of roads in my village and the neighbouring town have cars parked either half on/half off the pavement or even fully on the pavement, narrowing the space to the extent that you have to squeeze through as a pedestrian - it would be impossible to navigate with a wheelchair or even a pushchair. I'd like to see that made illegal and recognised as an anti-social practice.

{Edited to note: I should have read all 4 pages and realised this point had already been made.]

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mjr
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Re: Residents parking

Postby mjr » 4 Jan 2017, 1:30pm

Vorpal wrote:I think it's a bit silly, really. People cope just fine without parking next to the house in other countries. The Dutch and Danes design new housing estates that way. They have remote parking and pedestrian / pedal cycle / access only roads trhoughout the estate. People are allowed to drive to the houses to drop off groceries, make large deliveries, etc, but not otherwise. All parking is remote, but typically wihtin a few hundred metres.

The English built estates like that in the 1970s and 80s. They were sometimes called "Radburn" layouts after Radburn, New Jersey, or simply "path-fronted". Many were among the nicest-looking council developments. As so often happens, English developers failed to understand the principle and made basic errors, such as siting the communal car parks with diagonally across pedestrian desire lines, so walkers grumbled about the cars obstructing their route and motorists grumbed about the walkers who inevitably misjudged things and bumped into the cars, sometimes scratching them... and eventually, we reached a situation where community car parks are seen as a drawback, reflected in lower rents, rates and house prices. I feel that's part of the reason why they're less common now.

Vorpal wrote:Going round the M25 in the middle of the day on the Tuesday after Christmas (27th dec.), the traffic was like ~10 years ago at typical weekday peak time. I guess it was a combination of roadworks, replacement bus service on Greater East Anglia, and shopping traffic. :( But it still seemed remarkeably bad to me. Our journey took half again longer than expected.

Tue 27 Dec was the second bank holiday, so as well as the roadworks, rail works and shopping/sales traffic, you'd got people returning home after spending Christmas with family, ready to work on Wednesday, plus the M5 Avonmouth bridge spent most of the morning closed (frozen over), diverting most traffic between the South West and East Anglia from the usual A14 and A34/A421 routes onto the A303/M3/M25 one. Long-distance traffic was probably far worse than a typical weekday and in a very unusual pattern which the planners don't really cater for.

Glad to hear it looks like cycling is increasing to someone who visits, though!
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

pete75
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Re: Residents parking

Postby pete75 » 4 Jan 2017, 2:24pm

irc wrote: Roads are a public resource.


Quite right - so why should some people have an exclusive right to use this public resource to park their cars?

Tangled Metal
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Re: Residents parking

Postby Tangled Metal » 4 Jan 2017, 2:57pm

Is it exclusive? Depends on the local regulations i guess.

Some roads have no exclusivity. My road anyone can and often do park in it. Like people visiting the library round the corner despite the library having its own carpark. Instead some library users think it's ok to park right at the entrance to the road on the double yellow lines. On demand lights but you really can't see past cars parked like that.

Others are residents parking restrictions where anyone with a resident's permit can park there but visitors only for a set length of time with a no return period (usually within peak times).

Others you need a resident's permit to park there at all. I've seen a few streets (IIRC Bristol and Harrogate) where each house has a single car parking space which has been numbered on the road with appropriate signage.

Out of those only the last option can really be called exclusive.

IMHO some street parking is as open to use for road users as Sheffield stands in towns for bikes. You can't blame people for using what is available. The issue is we've never really had plans to manage increases in use of certain modes of transport until too late. Roads get overwhelmed before authorities start to look at the issue. Not the users but the Authorities that are at fault IMHO.

thirdcrank
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Re: Residents parking

Postby thirdcrank » 4 Jan 2017, 3:02pm

Colchester MP hits out at 'snobby' van ban estate

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38506338

Tory MP decides there's more mileage in Essex from WVMs' votes than property developer's political donations. :lol:

Bmblbzzz
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Re: Residents parking

Postby Bmblbzzz » 4 Jan 2017, 5:48pm

Tangled Metal wrote:Is it exclusive? Depends on the local regulations i guess.

Some roads have no exclusivity. My road anyone can and often do park in it. Like people visiting the library round the corner despite the library having its own carpark. Instead some library users think it's ok to park right at the entrance to the road on the double yellow lines. On demand lights but you really can't see past cars parked like that.

Others are residents parking restrictions where anyone with a resident's permit can park there but visitors only for a set length of time with a no return period (usually within peak times).

Others you need a resident's permit to park there at all. I've seen a few streets (IIRC Bristol and Harrogate) where each house has a single car parking space which has been numbered on the road with appropriate signage.

Out of those only the last option can really be called exclusive.

IMHO some street parking is as open to use for road users as Sheffield stands in towns for bikes. You can't blame people for using what is available. The issue is we've never really had plans to manage increases in use of certain modes of transport until too late. Roads get overwhelmed before authorities start to look at the issue. Not the users but the Authorities that are at fault IMHO.

Not Bristol. Various areas of Bristol have residents parking zones, but the system is up to three permits per household (and up to two vehicles per permit, though it can only be used in one vehicle at a time) and there are no numbered spaces, it's just a permit to park in a specified district. Within that district, some streets or parts of streets also have meter parking available to all; usually up to 3 hours, I think, but in most zones the permit system only applies Monday-Friday 9am-5pm. Outside the hours of operation, street parking is available to all. There are also visitors permits, which each household gets free.