Residents parking

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karlt
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Re: Residents parking

Postby karlt » 5 Jan 2017, 10:32am

blackbike wrote:The councils in my area spend lots of taxpayers money trying to encourage use of public transport.
.


I'm sure they do. They do around here as well. It's still impossible for Mrs KarlT to get to work (15 miles away) in less than 2 hours by public transport. We could move nearer, but then I'd have a much longer commute. And for all we know I or she could be working in a completely different place in a years' time.

The days of a long term job so you can choose to live near it are long gone for many people.

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mjr
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Re: Residents parking

Postby mjr » 5 Jan 2017, 11:38am

blackbike wrote:The councils in my area spend lots of taxpayers money trying to encourage use of public transport.

So why do they encourage car ownership and therefore car use by running residents parking schemes for people who don't make arrangements for keeping their cars on their own private land?

Because the powers available to them in each case (encouraging public transport and controlling car parking) have been limited by the UK government to be very inefficient and ineffective. Most of the country cannot direct public transport, so we get services running where and when their owners guess they might be most profitable rather than most used and generally being very conservative about route development and risk-taking; while public car parks are mostly in a maintenance-only pattern with occasional redevelopments (such as building a multi-storey on a surface car park, or rebuilding a multi-storey).

blackbike wrote:Councils should discourage on-road parking by residents or maintain a neutral stance. Active encouragement is irresponsible from an environmental point of view, especially in urban areas where emissions from vehicles cause health problems. It also means that our money they spend on promoting public transport use is wasted.

Not only residents: councils should discourage on-road parking by everyone and provide cheaper (to the public purse) and safer areas for vehicles to be stored, possibly turning some former roads into dead-end car parks.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Psamathe
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Re: Residents parking

Postby Psamathe » 5 Jan 2017, 11:47am

mjr wrote:... possibly turning some former roads into dead-end car parks.

An interesting aspect as, on thinking further, sensible controlled parking in dead-end roads can have less of an impact on others (though I still can't understand why the public purse should pay for somewhere for some people to park their cars).

But dead-ends still need to have parking controlled. One dead-end street where a relative lives has public parking "out-of-control" - residents all have plenty of their own off-road parking and it's the visitors who don't want to pay in local car parks who clog the road up to the point where e.g. an Ambulance/Fire engine would not be able to get through (driving through normally can be something of a challenge on occasions); highways ... not interested despite the fact local residents would welcome double yellow lines.

Ian

Bmblbzzz
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Re: Residents parking

Postby Bmblbzzz » 5 Jan 2017, 12:02pm

The biggest improvement I noticed when the area I live in was made a residents parking zone was a reduction in circulating traffic. Previously, commuters would drive round in the morning peak looking for somewhere to park.

Going back to the link with housing, much housing particularly in central areas is subdivided. This has already been mentioned by a couple of posters along the lines of one and a half car lengths per house now has to deal with four or more households, each with their own car. It also happens that some of these subdivisions are not registered; I wouldn't like to guess how many but it certainly happens. This means their occupants can't get RPZ permits, because their addresses don't officially exist. Obviously it has many other effects connected with use of streets, but that is the one most directly connected with this topic.

blackbike
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Re: Residents parking

Postby blackbike » 5 Jan 2017, 12:08pm

karlt wrote:
blackbike wrote:The councils in my area spend lots of taxpayers money trying to encourage use of public transport.
.


I'm sure they do. They do around here as well. It's still impossible for Mrs KarlT to get to work (15 miles away) in less than 2 hours by public transport. We could move nearer, but then I'd have a much longer commute. And for all we know I or she could be working in a completely different place in a years' time.

The days of a long term job so you can choose to live near it are long gone for many people.


Provision of guaranteed car parking and therefore car ownership, only encourages the trend towards working further from home, so helping to damage the environment and to cause health problems.

If we decreased the number of people who could afford to keep a car because they couldn't afford to park it then employers would have to respond by siting workplaces closer to their workers, as was the case before mass car ownership.

Councils should not encourage a car dependent employment market. They should discourage it or remain neutral.

On my street I know many people who commute to work in the city centre eight miles away by car and they keep their vehicles in the residents parking scheme at night. The rush hour traffic is dreadful, with use of public transport at the low levels found all over the UK except London. If the scheme was abolished these people might choose to use the frequent bus and tram services into town, and the roads would be less congested as a result. This would be a great environmental and health benefit. The scheme encourages car usage by guaranteeing a parking spot for residents in the evening. Use of my street for parking by staff at nearby workplaces could be prevented by double yellow lines.

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mjr
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Re: Residents parking

Postby mjr » 5 Jan 2017, 12:27pm

blackbike wrote:If the scheme was abolished these people might choose to use the frequent bus and tram services into town, and the roads would be less congested as a result.

Has that ever happened? I suspect you would mainly see an increase in circulating traffic at the start and end of each day as the residents (evenings) and workers (mornings) hunt the fewer remaining spaces.

Wouldn't it be a better solution to restrict car parking supply at the destinations and incentivise use of other transport?

Do you know why they don't currently use the bus or tram?
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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blackbike
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Re: Residents parking

Postby blackbike » 5 Jan 2017, 12:55pm

mjr wrote:
blackbike wrote:If the scheme was abolished these people might choose to use the frequent bus and tram services into town, and the roads would be less congested as a result.

Has that ever happened? I suspect you would mainly see an increase in circulating traffic at the start and end of each day as the residents (evenings) and workers (mornings) hunt the fewer remaining spaces.

Wouldn't it be a better solution to restrict car parking supply at the destinations and incentivise use of other transport?

Do you know why they don't currently use the bus or tram?


Do we know why many people are proud of their cars and the fact that they own one? Or why they lavish such care and attention on them, cleaning and polishing them on a Sunday morning? Or why they bore others about how wonderful their latest car is, and what gadgets is has? Do we know why the same people endure the same traffic jams on the same roads twice a day when it is obvious if they all took buses or trams the roads would be much clearer, the air would be cleaner, and they'd get to and from work much more quickly? Do we know why people use their cars for even the shortest trips when walking or cycling would be quicker on roads clogged with traffic and parked cars?

What we do know is that residents parking schemes do absolutely nothing to discourage car ownership and use, or to lessen the environmental and health problems associated with them.

Since their introduction in my area about 20 years ago car ownership has rocketed, traffic has got much worse and the streets are more clogged with parked cars than ever.

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mjr
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Re: Residents parking

Postby mjr » 5 Jan 2017, 1:18pm

blackbike wrote:
mjr wrote:Has that ever happened? I suspect you would mainly see an increase in circulating traffic at the start and end of each day as the residents (evenings) and workers (mornings) hunt the fewer remaining spaces.

Wouldn't it be a better solution to restrict car parking supply at the destinations and incentivise use of other transport?

Do you know why they don't currently use the bus or tram?


Do we know why many people are proud of their cars and the fact that they own one? Or why they lavish such care and attention on them, cleaning and polishing them on a Sunday morning? Or why they bore others about how wonderful their latest car is, and what gadgets is has? Do we know why the same people endure the same traffic jams on the same roads twice a day when it is obvious if they all took buses or trams the roads would be much clearer, the air would be cleaner, and they'd get to and from work much more quickly? Do we know why people use their cars for even the shortest trips when walking or cycling would be quicker on roads clogged with traffic and parked cars?

Does that stream of questions mean that you cannot answer any of mine? There's been quite a lot of research about attitudes to transport over many years, so there's some suggestions of why people use their cars for bonkers trips and why people are proud of them; and there's also a well-known tragedy-of-the-commons when public transport has to mix with private cars:
  • Everyone on buses or trams = overall-optimal solution
  • Everyone else on buses or trams and only you in a car = you get there faster
  • Everyone in cars = hell
  • Everyone else in cars and only you on the bus or tram = hell and you're the slowest
... so there's an incentive to be one of a car-using minority while insisting everyone else uses public transport.

blackbike wrote:What we do know is that residents parking schemes do absolutely nothing to discourage car ownership and use, or to lessen the environmental and health problems associated with them.

Do we know that? It seems like Resident Permit Zones lessen the environmental and health problems of uncontrolled parking by removing almost all circulating space-hunting motorists from that area.

blackbike wrote:Since their introduction in my area about 20 years ago car ownership has rocketed, traffic has got much worse and the streets are more clogged with parked cars than ever.

It may be that your particular RPZ doesn't have the right mix of types and rates to discourage car ownership and maybe too many permits are being issued for it too cheaply. It's always possible to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, but that doesn't make RPZs always a bad thing.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Re: Residents parking

Postby Vorpal » 5 Jan 2017, 1:42pm

blackbike wrote:
karlt wrote:
blackbike wrote:The councils in my area spend lots of taxpayers money trying to encourage use of public transport.
.


I'm sure they do. They do around here as well. It's still impossible for Mrs KarlT to get to work (15 miles away) in less than 2 hours by public transport. We could move nearer, but then I'd have a much longer commute. And for all we know I or she could be working in a completely different place in a years' time.

The days of a long term job so you can choose to live near it are long gone for many people.


Provision of guaranteed car parking and therefore car ownership, only encourages the trend towards working further from home, so helping to damage the environment and to cause health problems.

If we decreased the number of people who could afford to keep a car because they couldn't afford to park it then employers would have to respond by siting workplaces closer to their workers, as was the case before mass car ownership.

Councils should not encourage a car dependent employment market. They should discourage it or remain neutral.

On my street I know many people who commute to work in the city centre eight miles away by car and they keep their vehicles in the residents parking scheme at night. The rush hour traffic is dreadful, with use of public transport at the low levels found all over the UK except London. If the scheme was abolished these people might choose to use the frequent bus and tram services into town, and the roads would be less congested as a result. This would be a great environmental and health benefit. The scheme encourages car usage by guaranteeing a parking spot for residents in the evening. Use of my street for parking by staff at nearby workplaces could be prevented by double yellow lines.


If you want people to use public transport to go to work in the city centre, there are much easier ways of doing it. Eliminating residents parking schemes would be unpopular. If instead, employers were taxed and/or had to tax parking spaces as a benefit, but received tax relief for subsidizing public transport tickets/passes and for implementing programs to encourage active travel, I think that you would find that much more effective at easing congestion.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

blackbike
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Re: Residents parking

Postby blackbike » 5 Jan 2017, 2:06pm

Vorpal wrote:
blackbike wrote:
karlt wrote:
I'm sure they do. They do around here as well. It's still impossible for Mrs KarlT to get to work (15 miles away) in less than 2 hours by public transport. We could move nearer, but then I'd have a much longer commute. And for all we know I or she could be working in a completely different place in a years' time.

The days of a long term job so you can choose to live near it are long gone for many people.


Provision of guaranteed car parking and therefore car ownership, only encourages the trend towards working further from home, so helping to damage the environment and to cause health problems.

If we decreased the number of people who could afford to keep a car because they couldn't afford to park it then employers would have to respond by siting workplaces closer to their workers, as was the case before mass car ownership.

Councils should not encourage a car dependent employment market. They should discourage it or remain neutral.

On my street I know many people who commute to work in the city centre eight miles away by car and they keep their vehicles in the residents parking scheme at night. The rush hour traffic is dreadful, with use of public transport at the low levels found all over the UK except London. If the scheme was abolished these people might choose to use the frequent bus and tram services into town, and the roads would be less congested as a result. This would be a great environmental and health benefit. The scheme encourages car usage by guaranteeing a parking spot for residents in the evening. Use of my street for parking by staff at nearby workplaces could be prevented by double yellow lines.


If you want people to use public transport to go to work in the city centre, there are much easier ways of doing it. Eliminating residents parking schemes would be unpopular. If instead, employers were taxed and/or had to tax parking spaces as a benefit, but received tax relief for subsidizing public transport tickets/passes and for implementing programs to encourage active travel, I think that you would find that much more effective at easing congestion.


Why should employers be taxed because of the free choices of their employees to use a car to travel to work?

I can just about remember the time when most people went to work or school on foot or by bus, train or bicycle, and car ownership was much lower than it is now. On my childhood street in a moderately affluent part of suburban Manchester car ownership was the exception, not the norm.

It wasn't the employers in my city centre who made people all buy cars and cause all the traffic congestion and parking difficulties we now have.

These environmentally damaging and socially irresponsible things were cause by thousands of people freely choosing to abandon more appropriate forms of transport and electing to use a car instead, and to use that car every day on the streets of the city during rush hour.

Councils should focus on the cause of the current problems - the people who choose to use cars. Actively making car usage and car ownership more convenient by providing residents parking schemes was a big mistake, about as poorly thought out as most other transport related things councils do, such as the pathetic and useless cycle lanes that they painted about 20 years ago.

Also, taxing employers would be hypocritical in many cases. In the local town which has the headquarters of my council the only large employer which provides free parking for its workforce is the council itself! Most other workers have to park far away or pay at one of the council's car parks. The council's alleged desire for locals to cycle to work or use public transport obviously doesn't apply to its own staff.

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Re: Residents parking

Postby Vorpal » 5 Jan 2017, 2:14pm

blackbike wrote:Why should employers be taxed because of the free choices of their employees to use a car to travel to work?


They shouldn't necessarily, but they might be more likely to offer incentives to get employees to use public transport otherwise.

I was mainly thinking that a free parking space at a place of work, especially in a town centre, is a significant benefit, and should be taxed as such. That parking space is likely worth far more than the space used near someone's house 8 miles from the centre.

If you want to reduce congestion, it's better to reduce driving into town, than parking away fromt he centre. Also, I donæt see that eliminating residents' parking scheme will discourage car ownership? It seems to me that it will just make people who see their cars as *absolutely necessary* grumble about parking.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
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blackbike
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Re: Residents parking

Postby blackbike » 5 Jan 2017, 2:28pm

Vorpal wrote:
blackbike wrote:Why should employers be taxed because of the free choices of their employees to use a car to travel to work?


They shouldn't necessarily, but they might be more likely to offer incentives to get employees to use public transport otherwise.

I was mainly thinking that a free parking space at a place of work, especially in a town centre, is a significant benefit, and should be taxed as such. That parking space is likely worth far more than the space used near someone's house 8 miles from the centre.

If you want to reduce congestion, it's better to reduce driving into town, than parking away fromt he centre. Also, I donæt see that eliminating residents' parking scheme will discourage car ownership? It seems to me that it will just make people who see their cars as *absolutely necessary* grumble about parking.


People grumble about parking because they believe they are entitled to it for free or at a low cost, and that it should be easily available even in crowded urban areas. This sense of entitlement has happened partly because councils have pandered to car owners over the last few decades. That was a mistake as their feeble and futile attempts to lessen car usage now demonstrate.

Residents parking schemes were a part of this mistake.

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Re: Residents parking

Postby BakfietsUK » 5 Jan 2017, 2:34pm

If more people used public transport, buses and trains would earn more revenue and the services would get better. It would be mad for anyone to decide to use a car when so much more transport choice was available. The result would be better for all those using roads or living near them.

You would think so, wouldn't you? It would be a no brainer, wouldn't it?

I think the planners have the same lack of faith that I do. Offer an effective public transport system to most of the travelling public and they would seem to have a pathological attachment to their cars. The extent of which makes any forward planning such as necessary for the above, totally redundant. Driving is not about choice, it's about compulsion. This based on fear of losing personal space, "suffering" the closeness of fellow humans and a pathological delusion that car travel is safer.

If the car is ten metres closer to the house than it needs to be on a practical level, then that's ten metres less that the owner has to suffer other people.

My answer - Turn at least one ground floor room into a garage, so you don't have to walk anywhere in public. Heck, they turn their nice front gardens into car parks, so why not develop the trend. As long as you have a room to sleep in put all three cars in the house, problem solved.

Well, Really I ask you.

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Re: Residents parking

Postby Bmblbzzz » 5 Jan 2017, 3:39pm

mjr wrote:
blackbike wrote:If the scheme was abolished these people might choose to use the frequent bus and tram services into town, and the roads would be less congested as a result.

Has that ever happened? I suspect you would mainly see an increase in circulating traffic at the start and end of each day as the residents (evenings) and workers (mornings) hunt the fewer remaining spaces.

Wouldn't it be a better solution to restrict car parking supply at the destinations and incentivise use of other transport?

Do you know why they don't currently use the bus or tram?

As I mentioned earlier, the introduction of a residents parking scheme here has eliminated the "circulation" of commuters looking for somewhere to leave their car all day. Which leads to the question, what do those commuters do now? I'm afraid I can only guess. There hasn't been an movement of jobs out of the city centre and no new car parks have been opened. Probably some commuters are paying to leave their cars in commercial car parks all day (you can get parking season tickets), while some will have switched to other means of transport. And a few will have moved house. I doubt if more than a tiny number have moved house, as housing in the centre is hard to get and expensive.

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Re: Residents parking

Postby tatanab » 5 Jan 2017, 4:07pm

BakfietsUK wrote:Turn at least one ground floor room into a garage.
This was done in the 1960s/70s. 1930s 3 bed terraced houses had a front room, back room and kitchen. The front room would be converted to be a garage. These days garages are converted to rooms because the garage is too small to accommodate the oversized car and modern houses often do not 2 separate living rooms.