Police and Punishment Passes

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
roubaixtuesday
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Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Police and Punishment Passes

Postby roubaixtuesday » 13 Feb 2017, 9:19am

After being subject to not one but two punishment passes by the same motorist this morning, I've reported the incident to the police.

One was accompanied by verbal abuse, the other by a hand on the horn. There was a child in the passenger seat, sadly.

My prejudices that bullying behaviour comes with stupidity were confirmed when it turned out that his large, nearly new, expensive car wasn't taxed.

Will report back on any outcome; I've no real hope that anything will come of it.

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foxyrider
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Location: Sheffield, South Yorkshire

Re: Police and Punishment Passes

Postby foxyrider » 13 Feb 2017, 9:45am

You can't assume no tax disc means not taxed - tax discs are no longer required/issued as its on a central database.
Convention? what's that then?
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!

roubaixtuesday
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Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: Police and Punishment Passes

Postby roubaixtuesday » 13 Feb 2017, 9:48am

You can't assume no tax disc means not taxed - tax discs are no longer required/issued as its on a central database.


I checked the online database - not taxed. I don't think tax discs still exist, do they?

PDQ Mobile
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Re: Police and Punishment Passes

Postby PDQ Mobile » 13 Feb 2017, 9:59am

It sounds as if your driver has made a big and expensive mistake!

whoof
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Joined: 29 Apr 2014, 2:13pm

Re: Police and Punishment Passes

Postby whoof » 13 Feb 2017, 10:04am

Out of interest has anyone used a reporting tool such as this and if so what was the response?

https://www.avonandsomerset.police.uk/a ... near-miss/

hamster
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Joined: 2 Feb 2007, 12:42pm

Re: Police and Punishment Passes

Postby hamster » 13 Feb 2017, 12:15pm

I had a somewhat similar incident last month; Hampshire police have been rather responsive... :wink:

atlas_shrugged
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Joined: 8 Nov 2016, 7:50pm

Re: Police and Punishment Passes

Postby atlas_shrugged » 13 Feb 2017, 6:19pm

Probably a bit of a lottery how seriously the Policymen will take a complaint. Sadly this is how Beds/Cambs/Herts happily ignore any complaints with cast iron evidence (this was not my complaint but I trust the person completely as he is an experienced cyclist):

I sent the police some video footage from my helmet camera of a particularly scary/dangerous overtake and got this response...

Dear Mr xxxxxxxx

In relation to the concept of prosecution of minor traffic offences from video submissions or public witnesses, guidance has been sought Nationally from the Crown Prosecution Service and Policing leads.
It is the opinion of such experts that a prosecution for offences based solely upon this level of evidence is unlikely.
There are concerns from National Police Chiefs Council that this approach effectively removes the level of discretion and professional judgement used by officers when dealing with incidents or offences of this type, the value of which cannot be underplayed.

On this basis we will not engage in any prosecutions of such matters.

Yours sincerely

Cameras, Tickets & Collisions Dept.
Joint Protective Services

Bedfordshire Police, Cambridgeshire & Hertfordshire Constabularies.

Flinders
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Re: Police and Punishment Passes

Postby Flinders » 13 Feb 2017, 6:46pm

So what they are saying is concrete objective evidence and witness reports can't be 'interpreted' by them they way they like, so they will ignore it?
Presumably an evidence-free accusation would have been okay, then.........................

roubaixtuesday
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Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: Police and Punishment Passes

Postby roubaixtuesday » 13 Feb 2017, 7:44pm

Probably a bit of a lottery how seriously the Policymen will take a complaint


I've low expectations; to be fair they have zero evidence other than my word.

If they talk to the driver and he thinks twice before intimidating a vulnerable road user in future, that would be a win from my perspective.

roubaixtuesday
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Joined: 18 Aug 2015, 7:05pm

Re: Police and Punishment Passes

Postby roubaixtuesday » 13 Feb 2017, 7:49pm

In other news, at my final crossroads before home, a driver came up fast behind me as I was stopping for a red and jumped the lights, which spooked me a bit. While I was waiting for green a guy coming the other way was constantly looking down at his lap (presumably phone) whilst traversing the junction.

Not sure whether I was lucky to survive today or unlucky to be cursed by crossing the path of serial [rude word self redacted]

thirdcrank
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Re: Police and Punishment Passes

Postby thirdcrank » 13 Feb 2017, 9:15pm

Flinders wrote:So what they are saying is concrete objective evidence and witness reports can't be 'interpreted' by them they way they like, so they will ignore it?
Presumably an evidence-free accusation would have been okay, then.........................


This is obviously nonsense for the reasons you suggest.

It first seemed to rear its head when Ms Suzette Davenport gave this explanation to the last Parliamentary All-Party Cycling Charade and was reported with some astonishment by Martin Porter in his Cycling Silk blog. Martin Porter seems to be the only person of any standing who has queried this.

I think there's a policy issue here dressed up as evidential. I'd sum that policy up in my own unlearned way as something like "we are not going to spend vast hours watching and reviewing endless footage looking for evidence of offences we don't bother with anyway (as in why prosecute near misses when we have stopped prosecuting most crashes?) The following sentence makes no sense without the word "successful" before "prosecution," or else "conviction" instead of "prosecution."

It is the opinion of such experts that a prosecution for offences based solely upon this level of evidence is unlikely.


To be realistic, Martin Porter did mount a private prosecution for an alleged offence of dangerous driving consisting largely of a close overtaking manoeuvre at speed using camera footage as corroboration and the jury acquitted the defendant. MP subsequently posted his reflexions on his private prosecution, including IIRC, ralising a bit late in the day that no matter what an expert analyst may testify, most cameras of this type with a wide-angle lens make everything seem further away than is really the case.

For anybody not already familiar with Martin Porter's blog, here are some links relevant to what I have written above.

http://thecyclingsilk.blogspot.co.uk/20 ... on-2b.html
http://thecyclingsilk.blogspot.co.uk/20 ... 2-why.html
http://thecyclingsilk.blogspot.co.uk/20 ... ion-1.html
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bzho2RY ... edit?pli=1

MikeF
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Location: On the borders of the four South East Counties

Re: Police and Punishment Passes

Postby MikeF » 13 Feb 2017, 10:44pm

BrianFox wrote:After being subject to not one but two punishment passes by the same motorist this morning, I've reported the incident to the police.

One was accompanied by verbal abuse, the other by a hand on the horn. There was a child in the passenger seat, sadly.

My prejudices that bullying behaviour comes with stupidity were confirmed when it turned out that his large, nearly new, expensive car wasn't taxed.

Will report back on any outcome; I've no real hope that anything will come of it.
Which police force? Sussex has a method for reporting antisocial driving (even by text) although I've no experience of its effectiveness. Also some police forces attended the WMP close pass seminar. Surrey and Sussex apparently did but I don't think Kent did.
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master

pete75
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Re: Police and Punishment Passes

Postby pete75 » 15 Feb 2017, 2:06pm

Flinders wrote:So what they are saying is concrete objective evidence and witness reports can't be 'interpreted' by them they way they like, so they will ignore it?
Presumably an evidence-free accusation would have been okay, then.........................


Maybe but what I think they really mean is they can't be bothered.

Zigster
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Re: Police and Punishment Passes

Postby Zigster » 15 Feb 2017, 3:02pm

Bedfordshire Police, Cambridgeshire & Hertfordshire Constabularies wrote:There are concerns from National Police Chiefs Council that this approach effectively removes the level of discretion and professional judgement used by officers when dealing with incidents or offences of this type, the value of which cannot be underplayed.


Am I getting confused, or does that mean the opposite of what I presume the writer intended?

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tykeboy2003
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Re: Police and Punishment Passes

Postby tykeboy2003 » 15 Feb 2017, 3:47pm

atlas_shrugged wrote:It is the opinion of such experts that a prosecution for offences based solely upon this level of evidence is unlikely.
There are concerns from National Police Chiefs Council that this approach effectively removes the level of discretion and professional judgement used by officers when dealing with incidents or offences of this type, the value of which cannot be underplayed.


Quite happy to rely solely on cameras to fine speeding motorists though, but not when somebody's life has been endangered.