Police and Punishment Passes

[thirdcrank]

I don't think the detail of the wording is significant.

The person responsible for sending it (not necessarily the author because this may be more widely used) is a relatively junior admin person employed by the police in a role which might once have been that of "process sergeant." They are just the messenger.

Let's remember that when this type of technology was first becoming widely available, it coincided with the continuing decline of traffic policing and just about everything connected with it. Instead of anybody thinking "How can this new technology be harnessed to improve traffic enforcement, road safety, whatever" there will have been that sinking feeling of "this is all we need."

The difference now is that the former ACPO, whose members were all police officers of the highest ranks, has been replaced by the National Police Chiefs' Council which reflects the introduction of police and crime commissioners (PCC's) who decide policy.
http://www.npcc.police.uk/Home.aspx

I cannot see anything changing, except traffic enforcement continuing to shrink. It's a pity that this particular policy isn't displayed prominently, rather than being left to junior staff to handle.

[Phileas]

There are concerns from National Police Chiefs Council that this approach effectively removes the level of discretion and professional judgement used by officers when dealing with incidents or offences of this type, the value of which cannot be underplayed.

Am I getting confused, or does that mean the opposite of what I presume the writer intended?

OT. Probably. There sometimes seems to be a confusion in modern usage between underestimate/underplay and overestimate/overplay.

[Ivor Tingting]

Probably a bit of a lottery how seriously the Policymen will take a complaint. Sadly this is how Beds/Cambs/Herts happily ignore any complaints with cast iron evidence (this was not my complaint but I trust the person completely as he is an experienced cyclist):

I sent the police some video footage from my helmet camera of a particularly scary/dangerous overtake and got this response...

Dear Mr xxxxxxxx

In relation to the concept of prosecution of minor traffic offences from video submissions or public witnesses, guidance has been sought Nationally from the Crown Prosecution Service and Policing leads.
It is the opinion of such experts that a prosecution for offences based solely upon this level of evidence is unlikely.
There are concerns from National Police Chiefs Council that this approach effectively removes the level of discretion and professional judgement used by officers when dealing with incidents or offences of this type, the value of which cannot be underplayed.

On this basis we will not engage in any prosecutions of such matters.

Yours sincerely

Cameras, Tickets & Collisions Dept.
Joint Protective Services

Bedfordshire Police, Cambridgeshire & Hertfordshire Constabularies.

This response does't surprise me as Cambs police are dreadful. They do not give a monkeys about safety of cyclists. When I was hit and run I got a similar foad letter from these clowns about 3 months later telling me they had and will make no effort to trace the driver of the vehicle that hit me despite me providing a full registration. They also didn't realise I was a cyclist as they thought I was driving a car. I have reported numerous incidents over the years to Cambs police of close passes and drivers who drive at me or even get out to try to assault me but they have never ever done anything. Now I don't bother reporting incidents as they make it so difficult with their ignorant views of cyclists and cycling. End of last year a young girl driving a chav Corsa pulled right out in front of me from a side junction causing me to skid and nearly colliding with her vehicle as it crossed right in front of my wheel. How she didn't hit me I don't know. I had a very bright light as well. She had a mobile phone glued to her ear and stuck her middle finger up at me. Reported this to Cambs police and they weren't interested, nothing happened. The call centre operative on 101 was truly ignorant. Dreadful organisation. I notice they are one of the police forces NOT embracing West Midlands very promising initiative by cracking down on drivers who close pass cyclists.

[Cyril Haearn]

Probably a bit of a lottery how seriously the Policymen will take a complaint. Sadly this is how Beds/Cambs/Herts happily ignore any complaints with cast iron evidence (this was not my complaint but I trust the person completely as he is an experienced cyclist):

I sent the police some video footage from my helmet camera of a particularly scary/dangerous overtake and got this response...

Dear Mr xxxxxxxx

In relation to the concept of prosecution of minor traffic offences from video submissions or public witnesses, guidance has been sought Nationally from the Crown Prosecution Service and Policing leads.
It is the opinion of such experts that a prosecution for offences based solely upon this level of evidence is unlikely.
There are concerns from National Police Chiefs Council that this approach effectively removes the level of discretion and professional judgement used by officers when dealing with incidents or offences of this type, the value of which cannot be underplayed.

On this basis we will not engage in any prosecutions of such matters.

Yours sincerely

Cameras, Tickets & Collisions Dept.
Joint Protective Services

Bedfordshire Police, Cambridgeshire & Hertfordshire Constabularies.

This response does't surprise me as Cambs police are dreadful. They do not give a monkeys about safety of cyclists. When I was hit and run I got a similar foad letter from these clowns about 3 months later telling me they had and will make no effort to trace the driver of the vehicle that hit me despite me providing a full registration. They also didn't realise I was a cyclist as they thought I was driving a car. I have reported numerous incidents over the years to Cambs police of close passes and drivers who drive at me or even get out to try to assault me but they have never ever done anything. Now I don't bother reporting incidents as they make it so difficult with their ignorant views of cyclists and cycling. End of last year a young girl driving a chav Corsa pulled right out in front of me from a side junction causing me to skid and nearly colliding with her vehicle as it crossed right in front of my wheel. How she didn't hit me I don't know. I had a very bright light as well. She had a mobile phone glued to her ear and stuck her middle finger up at me. Reported this to Cambs police and they weren't interested, nothing happened. The call centre operative on 101 was truly ignorant. Dreadful organisation. I notice they are one of the police forces NOT embracing West Midlands very promising initiative by cracking down on drivers who close pass cyclists.

Maybe you could get the media to investigate and inform the public that the police do nothing

[landsurfer]

You can't assume no tax disc means not taxed - tax discs are no longer required/issued as its on a central database.

I checked the online database - not taxed. I don't think tax discs still exist, do they?

So ... you had his full registration and the make of the vehicle, why could you not lodge a complaint with the police on that basis ?
Transient assault, Use of Device etc ....

Could we please stop inventing new phrases to show how downtrodden we cyclists are ..... "he drove to close" ... "he drove without due care and attention" ...is accurate.... what the hell is a "Punishment Pass" ........ "Just off to work darling, bit early today as i have some cyclists to punish on the way " .... ..

[tatanab]

what the hell is a "Punishment Pass"

Really? A term that has been in use for at least 40 years. It describes retribution for some perceived slight or delay. Usually a fast and close pass followed by a sudden swerve to the kerb, often accompanied by braking (known as brake check).

[landsurfer]

what the hell is a "Punishment Pass"

Really? A term that has been in use for at least 40 years. It describes retribution for some perceived slight or delay. Usually a fast and close pass followed by a sudden swerve to the kerb, often accompanied by braking (known as brake check).

Sorry, i've only been cycling for 40 years and never heard of it ...... i must move in the wrong circles !!

[Cyril Haearn]

what the hell is a "Punishment Pass"

Really? A term that has been in use for at least 40 years. It describes retribution for some perceived slight or delay. Usually a fast and close pass followed by a sudden swerve to the kerb, often accompanied by braking (known as brake check).

A PP is an indication of serious mental health problems

[tykeboy2003]

what the hell is a "Punishment Pass"

I've been cycling since I got my first bike for my 14th birthday (in 1970) and I only heard the term within the last few years. This is probably because I'd never joined a cycling club or done organised rides till about 2008, I became familiar with the term upon joining this forum. I've been a victim of these events many times but it has really only been common over the last 10 years. I don't remember any in South Yorkshire where I grew up nor in Cambridge where I worked from 1978 to 1982 when I cycled almost everywhere.

It may be 40 years old but to me it's a newish thing - or maybe it never used to bother me so I don't remember the incidents.

[roubaixtuesday]

So ... you had his full registration and the make of the vehicle, why could you not lodge a complaint with the police on that basis ?
Transient assault, Use of Device etc ....

Hi landsurfer,

obviously my original post wasn't clear.

I did make a complaint to the police. I cited "dangerous driving", but which category (if any) his behaviour falls into is up the the police/CPS rather than me, I think. I've not heard anything back yet, but would be surprised if they feel they have sufficient evidence to prosecute. I hope they at least talk to him, but let's see. The lack of tax was just an incidental issue - but I would guess it may influence the police to take my complaint more seriously, perhaps? And at least follow it up as a separate issue. I don't know what the penalty for not being taxed is.

what the hell is a "Punishment Pass"

Deliberately overtaking in a way which endangers or otherwise intimates a cyclist.

Which police force?

MikeF, it was Cheshire

[bigjim]

I like this
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/police-going-undercover-posing-cyclists-12631923

[tykeboy2003]

I like this
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/police-going-undercover-posing-cyclists-12631923

It looks like the West Midlands Police initiative, as shown on "The One Show" last year is catching on with other forces at last. It's badly needed here in South Derbyshire.

[thirdcrank]

I think it would be good if this were both to succeed and to catch on. When the link was first posted I bit my metaphorical lip about police "posing as cyclists." Patrols in unmarked cars don't attract "Police posing as drivers" comments but the positive point is that this is something in the right direction.

[roubaixtuesday]

Well, that was frustrating.

Having just phoned up the police for follow up, it turns out that their verbal "would you like to speak to a police officer" actually means "would you like us to take any action"

So if you report an incident by phone, unless you make a written complaint, they do nothing other than log the incident to local community police support. Only if you go and make a separate written statement will they consider taking any action.

So they've done nothing other than pass on the "no insurance" to DVLA.

I said I wouldn't now take it forward as it's a while ago, but on reflection as I type this, I think I'll change my mind on that.

[atlas_shrugged]

I see cycling UK are kicking off a campaign where they specify 1.5m of clearance overtaking a bike. This seems very little and appears to conflict with guidance given here where rule 163 asks them to give as much room as overtaking a car and there is a helpful photo to make this clear:

http://ukcyclelaws.blogspot.co.uk/p/ove ... lists.html

I think a better way to tackle this is to use presumed liability as they do in France and other countries. When I cycled in Normandy the French drivers were excellent and appeared to be very careful overtaking bikes.

Apologies if I am kicking off an old storm but 1.5m seems very little safety margin.