Police twisting photos to hassle cyclists + leaflets in schools

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thirdcrank
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Re: Police twisting photos to hassle cyclists + leaflets in schools

Post by thirdcrank »

Psamathe wrote:I had always thought that a speed limit sign was a road traffic sign.

I had also always thought that cyclists were not required to obey motor vehicle speed limits.

So either my assumptions are wrong or I can get fined for ignoring something I am allowed to ignore ! And I must assume that the Police know the regs better than I do in this.


If we are going to be picky, two points:

Failing to comply with a traffic sign (section 36 Road Traffic Act, 1988) applies only to certain specified signs and to the drivers of vehicles, not only the drivers of mechanically-propelled vehicles. A pedal cycle is a vehicle.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4846

A speed limit sign is not a traffic sign for the purposes of s 36 of the RTA 1988. Exceeding a speed limit is an offence contrary either to the national speed limits or a local order.

So your assumptions are wrong. :wink:

PS On the subject of cribsheets, or at least explaining traffic law as it applies to cyclists I have tried, over the years. :(
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The utility cyclist
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Re: Police twisting photos to hassle cyclists + leaflets in schools

Post by The utility cyclist »

The thing that gets my goat is that Hants police have other far more important matters to use their time and efforts on.
Clearly they must not have other issues to be dealing with like;
Increase in sexual assaults and rapes, now the third highest rate per head in the country
Dealing with the 3000+ theft/fraud crimes against the over 65s every year with a paltry 2.5% conviction rate
Dealing with drug crimes, now either Hampshire is a properly clean place with respect to drugs or they simply don't do much about it they have made a grand total of 101 arrests (with 23 charges, no mention of convictions on their FOR page) for drug related crimes...in 7 years

Nope, what's best is to make up a load of lopsided nonsense and waste time going into schools over trivial matters compared to the real issues they need to be dealing with, I don't know like sorting out motoring crimes against people on bikes would be a start or any of the above that make not having a set of lights or having a "poor interaction with other road users" whatever the hell that means pale into insignificance!
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meic
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Re: Police twisting photos to hassle cyclists + leaflets in schools

Post by meic »

photography with them when they are working out of doors so they know what the law is and can resist attempts to bully them. Maybe we cyclists could do with the CTC doing one for us.


On the whole we are mostly ignored by the Police rather than hassled over non-offences.

I have been stopped over non-offences a couple of times both on motorbikes and on cycles for "safety reasons" rather than assertions that my behaviour was actually illegal. This is outweighed a thousand fold by the Police ignoring actual crimes committed by myself and those cycling with or near me.
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Psamathe
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Re: Police twisting photos to hassle cyclists + leaflets in schools

Post by Psamathe »

thirdcrank wrote:
Psamathe wrote:I had always thought that a speed limit sign was a road traffic sign.

I had also always thought that cyclists were not required to obey motor vehicle speed limits.

So either my assumptions are wrong or I can get fined for ignoring something I am allowed to ignore ! And I must assume that the Police know the regs better than I do in this.


If we are going to be picky, two points:

Failing to comply with a traffic sign (section 36 Road Traffic Act, 1988) applies only to certain specified signs and to the drivers of vehicles, not only the drivers of mechanically-propelled vehicles. A pedal cycle is a vehicle.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4846

A speed limit sign is not a traffic sign for the purposes of s 36 of the RTA 1988. Exceeding a speed limit is an offence contrary either to the national speed limits or a local order.

So your assumptions are wrong. :wink:

PS On the subject of cribsheets, or at least explaining traffic law as it applies to cyclists I have tried, over the years. :(

Many thanks. I accept my error. I am no expert - I just (incorrectly) regarded road signs as "Road Traffic Signs" - though I suspect others may make similar (incorrect) assumptions to myself (e.g. some who read the Hants Police flier/poster).

Ian
MikeF
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Re: Police twisting photos to hassle cyclists + leaflets in schools

Post by MikeF »

BakfietsUK wrote:According to "Cycling Weekly" Hampshire Police have apologised for this un-approved document.
If this was genuine a few questions regarding the cost of this mis information would not be amiss eg printing costs, time, as well as who actually did supply it. Or was it a "wind-up" prank, by some anti cyclists person(s)?
So many spelling mistakes eg "endorseable", and "offences" such as cycle lights not illuminated - they needn't be in daylight etc. I find this hard to be genuine.
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thirdcrank
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Re: Police twisting photos to hassle cyclists + leaflets in schools

Post by thirdcrank »

Flinders wrote:... Maybe we cyclists could do with the CTC doing (a crib sheet) for us.


Can I check whether or not this was posted in irony?

My reason for asking is that the long thread about the CTC dispensing with the services of Chris Juden touched on the matter of legal advice to cyclists and cycling UK's IMO rather sad attempts to publish simple AKA dumbed down legal and technical advice after his departure.

I've just checked and CJ's lighting page is still there, complete with the age bring privileges bit about pedal reflectors and non-BS front lamps.

http://www.cyclinguk.org/cyclists-libra ... egulations

If you, or anybody else, wanted a summary of which bits of the law applied to cyclists and pedal cycles I might have a go and see how I got on. A decent knowledge of the Highway Code is a good starting point, especially if you bear in mind that the bits which are only advice - "they can't touch you for it" - may still be raised either in civil proceedings (for compo) or a criminal prosecution (for "due care" etc.) Even the HC isn't always correct: at one point it was recommending flashing rear cycle lamps when they were still illegal. :roll: That edition was quickly withdrawn but for long enough I kept a copy as insurance, so to speak. :D

Anyway, the two big problems with producing something like that are that first, they have a sneaky habit of changing the legislation so somebody has to keep it up-to-date. Then, any simplification involves deciding what to leave out: the omissions may be the defences / loopholes that apply in a particular case and some smart alec :oops: is likely to go on about what's been overlooked.
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Paulatic
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Re: Police twisting photos to hassle cyclists + leaflets in schools

Post by Paulatic »

MikeF wrote:
BakfietsUK wrote:According to "Cycling Weekly" Hampshire Police have apologised for this un-approved document.
If this was genuine a few questions regarding the cost of this mis information would not be amiss eg printing costs, time, as well as who actually did supply it. Or was it a "wind-up" prank, by some anti cyclists person(s)?
So many spelling mistakes eg "endorseable", and "offences" such as cycle lights not illuminated - they needn't be in daylight etc. I find this hard to be genuine.


If it wasn't genuine why would they need to apologise?
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BakfietsUK
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Re: Police twisting photos to hassle cyclists + leaflets in schools

Post by BakfietsUK »

Because someone acted without authority and issued a completely misleading and biased document supposedly in the name of Hampshire Police. They are accepting responsibility for the indiscretion of ill informed staff. Why don't we cut them some slack?
thirdcrank
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Re: Police twisting photos to hassle cyclists + leaflets in schools

Post by thirdcrank »

The utility cyclist wrote:The thing that gets my goat is that Hants police have other far more important matters to use their time and efforts on.
... !

MikeF wrote: ... If this was genuine a few questions regarding the cost of this mis information would not be amiss eg printing costs, time, as well as who actually did supply it. ....

Obviously, I don't know anything about this specific case, but part of the general explanation is this:-
Whenever there are surveys into what offences people want their local police to deal with, there's a clear difference between what they regard as serious, typically murder and so on, and what's important to them typically dog fouling, pavement cycling, dog fouling, cycling without lights, dog fouling, other people's noisy parties, dog fouling, other people parking on the pavement, dog fouling, kids dirt tracking on old mopeds, dog fouling etc. They are not saying that crimes like murder are not serious, just that they don't happen up their street. It's a form of NYMBYism if you like. A lot of it is dreaming of a return to the fantasy era of Dixon of Dock Green. For a while it was often called "community policing" until, in some areas at least "community" became synonymous with "Asian." I think it's now more generally known as "Neighbourhood policing." One practical point is that it's extremely difficult to provide this when there are emergencies to deal with. The Home Office seem certain that it's more the person on patrol in uniform than their powers or training and step in the PCSO. Now, for long enough, if people wanted the police they rang 999 rather than some possibly hard to remember local number and part of the plan is that 101 deals with the less urgent stuff and passes it on, as appropriate to the appropriate neighbourhood team. They can't hope to deal with it all so somebody produces a leaflet like this one for distribution to "partners" "stakeholders" etc.

There's been an assumption in several posts that because it's got the police badge on, it must have been somehow approved higher up. The wonders of modern IT mean anybody can produce nice-looking fliers: it's the content that needs savvy. Gone are the days when nobody dare say a word for fear of being quoted as "a police spokesman." It's now OK to tweet on twitter and it exposes some twits.

Finally, the production of a leaflet like this is often an end in itself and not the advance notification of some sort of crackdown.
===================================================
PS Anybody who wants to know what their own neighbourhood police are concentrating on will find details on their own force website.
MikeF
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Re: Police twisting photos to hassle cyclists + leaflets in schools

Post by MikeF »

Paulatic wrote:Yes it's genuine, it was if I remember right produced by a couple of community policemen. All happened a few days ago on Twitter but one of the police cycling clubs investigated it. The document has now been removed from computers and a revised one was being sent out to the school(s) involved.
Yet Hampshire Police, by its own admission, reviews 25,000 complaints per year about collisions and bad driving, but mainly does not take any action. Perhaps they should include that on their leaflet as well with an explanation of why they are targeting cycling schoolchildren!
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thirdcrank
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Re: Police twisting photos to hassle cyclists + leaflets in schools

Post by thirdcrank »

Comparing that from Hampshire with the equivalent from Befordshire, Hertfordshire and Cambridgeshire on the recent punishment passes thread, at least it explains they feel they are too busy to investigate a complaint

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=112349&p=1098820#p1098820

I could rattle up any number of half-baked leaflets in the time taken to do a reasonable investigation of a complaint of bad driving, especially if it meant going to court.

I do wonder how a car or indeed its driver can become a repeat offender if allegations against either go uninvestigated
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Re: Police twisting photos to hassle cyclists + leaflets in schools

Post by MikeF »

thirdcrank wrote:
I do wonder how a car or indeed its driver can become a repeat offender if allegations against either go uninvestigated
Excellent point. Of course that will reflect in the "figures" that driving is of a better standard than reality.
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master.
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Cunobelin
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Re: Police twisting photos to hassle cyclists + leaflets in schools

Post by Cunobelin »

thirdcrank wrote:
Psamathe wrote:I had always thought that a speed limit sign was a road traffic sign.

I had also always thought that cyclists were not required to obey motor vehicle speed limits.

So either my assumptions are wrong or I can get fined for ignoring something I am allowed to ignore ! And I must assume that the Police know the regs better than I do in this.


If we are going to be picky, two points:

Failing to comply with a traffic sign (section 36 Road Traffic Act, 1988) applies only to certain specified signs and to the drivers of vehicles, not only the drivers of mechanically-propelled vehicles. A pedal cycle is a vehicle.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4846

A speed limit sign is not a traffic sign for the purposes of s 36 of the RTA 1988. Exceeding a speed limit is an offence contrary either to the national speed limits or a local order.

So your assumptions are wrong. :wink:

PS On the subject of cribsheets, or at least explaining traffic law as it applies to cyclists I have tried, over the years. :(


Trouble is that they do NOT know the law


Fareham had a ridiculous situation where there was no cycle access from the East into the town...... The only access was for busses with a "Cyclists dismount" sign

Got pulled over by a PCSO, (With a PC in the background) who asked me what it was........

So I explained d that it was a Diagram 966 - Cyclists Dismount sign

He wasn't happy, when I then pointed out that it was an advisory instruction only as it was a square sign with a blue background.

He insisted that it was compulsory, so I pointed out that several cars had passed a similar sign with a "P" on it, that meant by his definition parking was mandatory and tens of vehicles were "committing and offence" by not parking

I was then told to dismount, and agreed as it was an instruction from a "Uniformed Officer" , and asked him where I was allowed to remount as there are no "Cyclists Mount" Signs... so therefore no end to the restriction and he needed to give clear instructions where to mount. He looked across at the PC for help, who intervened and sent me on my way
thirdcrank
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Re: Police twisting photos to hassle cyclists + leaflets in schools

Post by thirdcrank »

MikeF wrote: ... Excellent point. Of course that will reflect in the "figures" that driving is of a better standard than reality.


One of my problems is that I tend to assume current forum members have read all my baggage of old posts. (Another is that I forget some of it :oops: Last night I found myself "trotting out an old warhorse" when I meant hobbyhorse.)

I thought that that letter was very carefully, even artfully crafted to cover everything, especially the writer's backside. A tad patronising, perhaps, but still skilled penmanship. I presume that the bit I referred to was an oblique reference to section 59 of the Police Reform Act, 2002 which - in certain circumstances - allows the police to confiscate "Vehicles used in manner causing alarm, distress or annoyance"

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2002/30/section/59

Only an oblique reference, perhaps because they don't want very cyclists submitting headcam footage to insist they go through the process of warning the driver etc.

I'd suggest that anybody getting a letter like this who remains dissatisfied should press for that procedure to be applied. Incidentally, if you search on sec 59 warnings, there's some interesting stuff. My first hit was from a driver who had blown their horn at the occupants of a police car and had then received a warning.
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meic
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Re: Police twisting photos to hassle cyclists + leaflets in schools

Post by meic »

I am glad that only applies to motor vehicles because I think that we cyclists cause a lot of annoyance to a substantial minority of car drivers.
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