A good reason to bar cyclists

[peetee]

I invite you to view from the air the junction of West Quay Road and Mountbatten Way in Southampton - major arterial roads for port and retail traffic into the city from the west and north. This was the location of a cyclist fatality approx 3 years ago. The rider was travelling west, the driver north west so merging into the shared roads and on a collision path to the cyclists left. The incident lead to a prosecution which I won't go in to but I would be interested in comments as to whether members would consider this junction unsuitable for cyclists?
I would argue that the traffic light phasing is highly unlikely to allow for safe passage of a slow vehicle. Approaching from the east along Mountbatten Way the distance from the traffic light stop line to the furthest point of the merging West Quay Road is approx 80 meters. The traffic light phase is similar to other junctions in the city in that it is set to minimise the delay to waiting traffic in a highly congested city. Neverthless, the phasing has to allow 30mph traffic to safely traverse 80m of road at the end of the green light phase to prevent conflict with merging traffic on the next green light phase (from West Quay Road). How long would it take a cyclist labouring into a southwesterly wind on this exposed junction to travel 80m? If my maths is right a 10mph rider would take 18 seconds to be clear and safe. In all my years on the road I have never come across a junction that holds traffic for 18 seconds between phases. That sort of delay results in a large percentage of lost traffic movement in a location that needs all the congestion relief it can get. When you are waiting at lights just a handful of seconds seems an age. For what it's worth the continuation of Mountbatten Way is a triple lane road with a 40mph limit (50 at the time of the incident). It's inherent unsuitability for cycling means there is an optional segregated cycle lane route but at this point it's remoteness makes it impractical and undetectable from some approach roads. Should this road junction become cyclist free?

[Warin61]

If the road is cycling unsafe ... then what (safe and suitably fast and short and etc) alternatives alternatives are there?
If there are none then making the road safe for cyclist is the only presently available action.

A good reason to bar cars?

[Elizabethsdad]

No, it would I feel be setting a dangerous precedent to start banning cycling in a number of other locations making cycling as a form of transport less attractive and accessible. The OP leaves out all the details of the specific case and makes a number of other assumptions, which if written as an article in the media would be classed as sloppy and misleading journalism. If you want to cycle from Western Esplanade along onto Millbrook Road, Mountbatten Way is the most direct route. Any alternative route would involve negotiating a number of other junctions thereby making the risk of a collision more likely as well as making the journey less convenient. I have actually cycled in that location myself, following West Quay Road - I was travelling from Bittern to Millbrook riding a laden cargo bike. I did consider that this is a busy road when choosing this route, but in comparison to riding along narrow residential roads choked with on street parking no less dangerous and much more convenient.

[Vorpal]

If the design is poor for cyclists, it should be changed, or a good alternative provided.

[[XAP]Bob]

If a zippy old alternative is provided nob an would be needed.

Better still redesign the Jin film so that the conflict is eliminated.

[pwa]

If the design is poor for cyclists, it should be changed, or a good alternative provided.

+1

I know of a few roads highly unsuitable for cycling, yet still officially open to cyclists. Very few cyclists use them. They have more sense. Prohibiting cycling on those roads would be good for safety, but a decent and practical alternative is essential.

[Tangled Metal]

There are prohibitions against cyclists on roads up and down the country. From motorways to major roads, but AFAIK there's none like that on main commuter routes such as the one I think the OP is referring to. I could be wrong since it is over 20 years since I was last in the Southampton area (last family members died or moved away but a lovely city).

If a main route like this is not suitable for users then it should be made suitable. Correct me if I'm wrong but should cyclists be second class and therefore it's ok to ban because of reasons like this? Would they ban trucks from junctions because visibility turning left made them dangerous to other road users and pedestrians?

Ok it wasn't the road I was thinking of, way out. To me I don't think it's that bad. I'd ride it. My partner would get worried by it but we'd be through it before it became an issue. Having said that she'd probably never let us ride on the whole road as a family. She finds some of our local country lanes scary at times. To be fair the bank holiday traffic through the road I'm thinking of is crazy. Visitors into the area not used to country lanes I reckon. Either way two cars do not get through gaps little over one car width wide. Not even if you have two bikes and a child trailer in there magically making it wider! I digress!

Is there no way to make it safe for cyclists? BTW when was it built as it is?

[thirdcrank]

Are we now at the stage where cyclists - (one cyclist?) - are unilaterally proposing a ban on cycling?

[gaz]

Are we now at the stage where cyclists - (one cyclist?) - are unilaterally proposing a ban on cycling?

The spell of the motor car, 'tis a powerful spell.

As the familiar sound broke forth, the old passion seized on Toad and completely mastered him, body and soul. As if in a dream he found himself, somehow, seated in the driver's seat; as if in a dream, he pulled the lever and swung the car round the yard and out through the archway; and, as if in a dream, all sense of right and wrong, all fear of obvious consequences, seemed temporarily suspended. He increased his pace, and as the car devoured the street and leapt forth on the high road through the open country, he was only conscious that he was Toad once more, Toad at his best and highest, Toad the terror, the traffic-queller, the Lord of the lone trail, before whom all must give way or be smitten into nothingness and everlasting night.

[pwa]

Are we now at the stage where cyclists - (one cyclist?) - are unilaterally proposing a ban on cycling?

Take a look at the A4232 (Cardiff) between Culverhouse Cross and Cardiff Bay. (Google maps makes it look less busy than it usually is). It is like a motorway but without the hard shoulder. I've cycled it in the dim and distant past, clenched teeth all the way. Never again. I now only drive it, and never see a cyclist on it. Locals know better than to try cycling on that. I'd put a no cycling sign on it to save my fellow cyclists. To preserve life. That would be a first step. Then the more time and money consuming stuff of creating a suitable alternative route into Cardiff from Culverhouse Cross.

[Vorpal]

I object in principle to banning cyclists.

To my mind, the solution is a good design that accomodates cyclists, or a good, well signposted alternative.

If highways agencies did a good job with the alternatives, I wouldn't mind if cyclists were banned form a dual carriageway A roads. But at the moment, they take an overly liberal interpretation of what a good alternative is.

[Ruadh495]

Mountbatten Way is frightening enough in a car, it's basically a motorway with much narrower lanes. I avoid driving on it, can't imagine cycling there.

There is an alternative, of sorts, consisting of a mix of parallel access roads and cycle paths. It's not ideal, it's disjointed and there's too many junctions, but it does exist.

I can't really comment on cycle provision in other cities, but I get the impression that Southampton is particularly bad for a city of it's size and traffic volume. Anyone know?

[thirdcrank]

I suspect there are few cyclists who would take a "dangerous" route in preference to something safer and suitable. (See the comment in Cycle-Friendly Infrastructure about riders avoiding roundabouts.) As it is, it's much easier to exclude cyclists unofficially (ie without a ban) from roads by installing useless farcilities. Simply banning cyclists means that those responsible don't even need to bother with token alternatives.

The real point is that potential cyclists decide cycling isn't worth it.

[Richard Fairhurst]

A lot of novice cyclists simply don't know how to find bike-friendly routes. Whenever I drive along the A44 from Chipping Norton to Moreton-in-Marsh at a weekend, I see young couples on hybrids struggling up the hills and being buzzed by the traffic. There are much better cycling roads in the area, but most people's mental geometry is shaped by years of being a car passenger and then a driver. (At the other end of the scale, it's pretty common round here for Oxford cyclists to think "oh, I'll cycle to Banbury", figure that the canal goes there, and spend 20 miles struggling along something that becomes a barely rideable dirt track as soon as you've left the city - when, again, there are some lovely lanes to use.)

So I can see the logic in discouraging cyclists from using roads like this one in Southampton and pwa's example. We know better, but not everyone does. Whether this is advisory or compulsory could be debated - it's notable that a lot of traffic "prohibitions" these days are actually advisory (particularly in the case of anti-satnav "unsuitable for HGVs" signs), presumably because it's simpler to put up an advisory blue sign than get a Traffic Regulation Order.

But there needs to be a good-quality alternative route before any such action is taken. In the Southampton example there appears to be a gravel path between road and railway which could be widened and surfaced to make a very nice replacement cycling route, for example. It's just that most local authorities haven't got the message yet...

[SA_SA_SA]

Definitely not: banning cyclists where the problem is caused by how motor vehicles are driven is rewarding bad driving and stealing the public roads.

If (currently) better routes are available for cyclists just signpost them....