Cyclists shouldn't be on the road!

[Tangled Metal]

It didn't work for a long time. Truth is it took a generation or more to achieve. Do you really want to wait until the new drivers being taught to drive now have replaced all existing drivers? Well until enough have stopped driving to reach critical mass.

Perhaps it could be a better idea to also use the alternatives to get the required result, less car/cyclist accident. Better designed roads/junctions, segregation of motorists and cyclists, etc.

[[XAP]Bob]

I suspect t education will work faster than that - because computers will be doing much of the driving in the medium term...


And when most cars have an array of cameras....

[jgurney]

I'm talking about main commuter routes not door to door. .... Let's talk realism ... I'm proposing segregation on certain main cycle commuter routes ..... I'm certainly not suggesting door to door segregation. ..... It's the fastest route in for cyclists, most direct route.

That sounds far more sense than the original proposal which appeared to refer to the entire road network.

I remain a bit sceptical for several reasons:
- the practical problem of building separate cycle paths alongside g/p carriageways without creating a situation where either cyclists using them end up travelling more slowly than those remaining on the carriageway, or complex junctions end up slowing all traffic, including cyclists and busses. The main problem is how you handle situations where in effect two parallel roads cross two other parallel roads. It needs either grade separation (expensive or hard to install in many locations) or lots of different light phases with lots of waiting.
- the shortage of places where the is space available to install these.
- the tendency of pedestrians and some cyclists to act more carelessly once motor traffic is absent, which seems in my own experience to sometimes make motor-free routes actually more risky.
- the problems around separate cycle routes leading motorists to imagine cyclists belong there only.

[Ruadh495]

A (near) brush with an HGV this morning got me thinking about this again. It occurred to me that passing a cyclist properly is a significant cost for an HGV driver, in time, fuel and vehicle wear. Hence the close overtake on a bend (unnecessary as he (lets assume "he", could have been a "she"...) still went far enough into the oncoming lane to have hit anything which was there, but it saved him slowing down and speeding up again). I normally try to let HGVs through, but there was just nowhere to pull over. Most HGVs pass nicely as well, even though it must cost them.

Once more the problem is speed differential. If he'd only had 15mph to lose and regain, rather than 41, he might have been more prepared to stay behind for the couple of seconds needed to reach the next straight and a safe pass. So a 30mph speed limit might have prevented the incident. A segregated cycleway certainly would have done.

Is a cycleway for every "A" class road, and lower speed limits elsewhere, really too much to ask? To help both cyclists and motorists.

[reohn2]

As a short reply to this thread,it seems to me that government decide needs in this context on statistics.If the statistics don't dictate a problem ie; no significant KSI,then there isn't a problem.
It seems quality of life doesn't come into it,so cycling provision is suppressed due to flawed statistical analysis,more people would cycle if they felt it were safe to do so,whether perceived or actual,hence the feeling in the populous generally that you're mad if ride a bike on UK roads.

[jgurney]

Is a cycleway for every "A" class road, and lower speed limits elsewhere, really too much to ask?

Many existing A-roads simply do not have the space for this, unless in some cases you compulsorily purchased and used the front gardens of adjacent premises, and in others demolished roadside buildings.

Even if it could be done, I suspect it would not be wholly popular. E.g. most of my journey to work is on A-roads. If they did have cycleways and at every current traffic light junction there were twice as many phases as at present (as would be needed to avoid hazards due to traffic from the two parallel streams crossing each other) I suspect the cycle journey time increase would be significant.

[Ruadh495]

Are there really roads which are that close to buildings / gardens and have 60mph speed limits? I'd have thought that represented significant risk on it's own.

[tykeboy2003]

As a retired teacher I have a lot less confidence than you in the power of education. In many cases genetic modification would be required !
The Dutch have shown that infrastructure works; can you point to any examples where "proper enforcement and public education" has actually done the job ?

I bow to your experience, however, one example of motorists changing their behaviour as a result of education and enforcement (with some peer pressure) is in drink driving. We are both old enough to remember when the attitude of of many (maybe most) motorists was that it was largely harmless and they would never get caught. Today it is seen by almost all motorists to be a complete no-no.

[jgurney]

Are there really roads which are that close to buildings / gardens and have 60mph speed limits?

You specified A-roads above, without reference to speed limits, and my comment was not particularly about 60mph ones. Many A-roads have limits below 60mph. Many roads which are not class A do have 60mph limits.

Are we discussing A-roads in general or only those A-roads with 60mph limits?

In any case the answer to the question is yes, there are plenty of examples of isolated buildings, and many more cases of gardens attached to such, being beside rural A-roads with 60 mph limits.

[Cunobelin]

A (near) brush with an HGV this morning got me thinking about this again. It occurred to me that passing a cyclist properly is a significant cost for an HGV driver, in time, fuel and vehicle wear. Hence the close overtake on a bend (unnecessary as he (lets assume "he", could have been a "she"...) still went far enough into the oncoming lane to have hit anything which was there, but it saved him slowing down and speeding up again). I normally try to let HGVs through, but there was just nowhere to pull over. Most HGVs pass nicely as well, even though it must cost them.

Once more the problem is speed differential. If he'd only had 15mph to lose and regain, rather than 41, he might have been more prepared to stay behind for the couple of seconds needed to reach the next straight and a safe pass. So a 30mph speed limit might have prevented the incident. A segregated cycleway certainly would have done.

Is a cycleway for every "A" class road, and lower speed limits elsewhere, really too much to ask? To help both cyclists and motorists.

Overtaking someone is such a significant cost that overtaking properly is unreasonable


Care to give an estimate of that cost so we can see just how much value that places on a human life?

[Tangled Metal]

As a retired teacher I have a lot less confidence than you in the power of education. In many cases genetic modification would be required !
The Dutch have shown that infrastructure works; can you point to any examples where "proper enforcement and public education" has actually done the job ?

I bow to your experience, however, one example of motorists changing their behaviour as a result of education and enforcement (with some peer pressure) is in drink driving. We are both old enough to remember when the attitude of of many (maybe most) motorists was that it was largely harmless and they would never get caught. Today it is seen by almost all motorists to be a complete no-no.

Took a generation to happen right? Do you want to wait for the motorist dinosaurs to die off before you get the safety we should have now?

I seem to remember drink driving is on the increase again and I'm sure I read it's growing most in the younger drivers. Can't remember details so could just be wrong about younger drivers, but I believe the increase is true. Plus there's always been a significant number who still drink and drive. Then there's drug driving with illegal and legal drugs. Not perfect at all.

If you had the choice of 20-30 years wait for attitudes to change or 5 years to get a cycle path put in while you wait for attitude to change. Which offers the best option?

[tykeboy2003]

Took a generation to happen right?

It seemed to happen in a very short space of time in the 90s as I recall. I agree that the younger generation seem to be going backwards with respect to drink/drug driving though.

The biggest problem we have in regard to cycling facilities is that most councils don't take it seriously and engage in tokenism, ie "paint a few useless lines on the road, tick in the box and move on to spend the real money keeping the motorists happy because they are the majority and will vote for us at the next election".

What we need is to pursue both goals; better driving standards along with some good cycling facilities - specifically long off-road routes like former railways etc. However, I really do feel that abandoning the roads is counterproductive; the less that motorists have to deal with cyclists, the worse they will be at it.

[Tangled Metal]

It feels to me that to change minds I think what we need is a miracle! Well at times anyway.

[landsurfer]

However, I really do feel that abandoning the roads is counterproductive; the less that motorists have to deal with cyclists, the worse they will be at it.

This is an issue for motorcyclists and cyclists .... Both groups must stamp their presence on the road or we will both be removed .... Its easier to ban motor and pedal cyclists than bother to educate car and commercial vehicle drivers .... Is how it appears to me ....

[Ruadh495]

A (near) brush with an HGV this morning got me thinking about this again. It occurred to me that passing a cyclist properly is a significant cost for an HGV driver, in time, fuel and vehicle wear. Hence the close overtake on a bend (unnecessary as he (lets assume "he", could have been a "she"...) still went far enough into the oncoming lane to have hit anything which was there, but it saved him slowing down and speeding up again). I normally try to let HGVs through, but there was just nowhere to pull over. Most HGVs pass nicely as well, even though it must cost them.

Once more the problem is speed differential. If he'd only had 15mph to lose and regain, rather than 41, he might have been more prepared to stay behind for the couple of seconds needed to reach the next straight and a safe pass. So a 30mph speed limit might have prevented the incident. A segregated cycleway certainly would have done.

Is a cycleway for every "A" class road, and lower speed limits elsewhere, really too much to ask? To help both cyclists and motorists.

Overtaking someone is such a significant cost that overtaking properly is unreasonable


Care to give an estimate of that cost so we can see just how much value that places on a human life?

I don't know, you'd have to ask the driver (or his boss), he clearly thought it was worth it. I wasn't so sure...

With regard to the difficulty of providing infrastructure on even 60mph roads, isn't it time we either solved these problems or lowered the speed limit? Is it worth destroying the gardens/buildings to protect lives? Is it worth it just so drivers can go a little faster?