BBC: Cyclist dies after hit by minibus following Edinburgh tram track fall

[hercule]

I visit Edinburgh with my Brompton occasionally, the tram tracks do not inspire any confidence in me. In some parts (e.g. around Haymarket) they are unavoidable and in direct conflict with pre-existing cycle routes.

[GPC]

What I'd find interesting is whether designers considered this risk to cyclists when designing the tram routes, especially at junctions?

No, during the construction process cycling was designed out of the tram scheme. TIE - the company set up by City of Edinburgh Council took no cogniscience of cycling at all. They nodded, listned and then ignored. Even Jan Gehl was bought over at our expense form Scandinavia to advise, and all the things he recommended were ignored as well. The tram tracks run into and away from kerbs, often where cyclists will find themselves. The tram was an opportunity to build in dedicated bike infra, and it was ignored.

[GPC]

It beggars my belief why someone would ride along tramtracks. They must surely know tramlines and thin bicycle wheels dont really work, except to cause crashing.

Richard the hamster famously demonstrated this quite well.

It beggars my belief that someone could make such a crass comment, if the tram tracks are part of your route home what do you do? It beggars my belief that motor vehicles following cyclists on that road are so close they cannot conceivable stop in time should a cyclist fall.

[Username]

It beggars my belief why someone would ride along tramtracks. They must surely know tramlines and thin bicycle wheels dont really work, except to cause crashing.

Richard the hamster famously demonstrated this quite well.

It beggars my belief that someone could make such a crass comment, if the tram tracks are part of your route home what do you do? It beggars my belief that motor vehicles following cyclists on that road are so close they cannot conceivable stop in time should a cyclist fall.

Didnt mean it in a crass way. Just saying it would have been better to take a different route as its only inevitable you will be hurt riding along tramlines. Falling into traffic was a tragic accident.

[Grandad]

From the comments about the poor design and the impossibility of following the official advice to cross the lines at right angles I wonder if these facts should be recorded by the coroner when the inquest is held. It's not unusual for coroners to add constructive criticism when delivering a verdict.

[GPC]

It beggars my belief why someone would ride along tramtracks. They must surely know tramlines and thin bicycle wheels dont really work, except to cause crashing.

Richard the hamster famously demonstrated this quite well.

It beggars my belief that someone could make such a crass comment, if the tram tracks are part of your route home what do you do? It beggars my belief that motor vehicles following cyclists on that road are so close they cannot conceivable stop in time should a cyclist fall.

Didnt mean it in a crass way. Just saying it would have been better to take a different route as its only inevitable you will be hurt riding along tramlines. Falling into traffic was a tragic accident.

Go onto google streetview, look at Princes Street, you will see that the council have painted the cycle route BETWEEN the tram lines, they built the tram route without any thought whatsoever for cyclists, they designed cycling OUT of the system. Now the council and others are saying we should use less direct, more long winded routes with multiple junctions (more risk) and hills. It beggars belief...

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.95034 ... 312!8i6656

[hercule]

From the comments about the poor design and the impossibility of following the official advice to cross the lines at right angles I wonder if these facts should be recorded by the coroner when the inquest is held. It's not unusual for coroners to add constructive criticism when delivering a verdict.

Different system in Scotland - we don't have mandatory inquests, the equivalent is a Fatal Accidenr Inquiry, which AFAIK are at the discretion of the Procurator Fiscal (public prosecutor, sort of).

[Vorpal]

Go onto google streetview, look at Princes Street, you will see that the council have painted the cycle route BETWEEN the tram lines, they built the tram route without any thought whatsoever for cyclists, they designed cycling OUT of the system. Now the council and others are saying we should use less direct, more long winded routes with multiple junctions (more risk) and hills. It beggars belief...

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.95034 ... 312!8i6656

And a couple of junctions down, there are cycle lanes that approach the tram tracks at an obtuse angle. It is impossible to stay in the cycle lane and approach the tram tracks at a safe angle.

[Username]

It beggars my belief that someone could make such a crass comment, if the tram tracks are part of your route home what do you do? It beggars my belief that motor vehicles following cyclists on that road are so close they cannot conceivable stop in time should a cyclist fall.

Didnt mean it in a crass way. Just saying it would have been better to take a different route as its only inevitable you will be hurt riding along tramlines. Falling into traffic was a tragic accident.

Go onto google streetview, look at Princes Street, you will see that the council have painted the cycle route BETWEEN the tram lines, they built the tram route without any thought whatsoever for cyclists, they designed cycling OUT of the system. Now the council and others are saying we should use less direct, more long winded routes with multiple junctions (more risk) and hills. It beggars belief...

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.95034 ... 312!8i6656

That is one example of why I despize our government so much. They wouldn't be able to put a 2 piece jigsaw together if I printed out a guide. Our government (and I include councils and devolved powers in that) are famous for this sort of idiocy. It's why America has NASA and the UK has JCP.

[AMMoffat]

Go onto google streetview, look at Princes Street, you will see that the council have painted the cycle route BETWEEN the tram lines, they built the tram route without any thought whatsoever for cyclists, they designed cycling OUT of the system. Now the council and others are saying we should use less direct, more long winded routes with multiple junctions (more risk) and hills. It beggars belief...

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.95034 ... 312!8i6656

I rode down Princess Street last year on that cycle lane having arrived at Waverley Station and felt very vulnerable. There is nowhere to go except into the tram lines if something adverse happens. Also, how on earth do you get onto and off the cycle lane by going over the tram lines at a right angle? It's not possible at all. Every staff member of Edinburgh Council Roads Department should be required to have a go. I bet they wouldn't be able to do it either

[[XAP]Bob]

It beggars my belief why someone would ride along tramtracks. They must surely know tramlines and thin bicycle wheels dont really work, except to cause crashing.

Richard the hamster famously demonstrated this quite well.

It beggars my belief that someone could make such a crass comment, if the tram tracks are part of your route home what do you do? It beggars my belief that motor vehicles following cyclists on that road are so close they cannot conceivable stop in time should a cyclist fall.

Didnt mean it in a crass way. Just saying it would have been better to take a different route as its only inevitable you will be hurt riding along tramlines. Falling into traffic was a tragic accident.

No - it's not inevitable.

You just need to design the tram tracks properly.

Falling into the path of traffic is what traffic ought to be expecting. Particularly with the 'awareness' that the council claim to have raised.

There are multiple people at fault here, and the least of those is the person who has paid with their life. The design team should never have put the package together, the planning team should never have allowed it onto the road. The builders should have sent it back (although I'll likely give them a pass). The traffic around a cycle should always be driving in a way that results in a fall being non fatal.

I've cycled round tram lines in Dublin, and was exceedingly careful around them - which obviously affected my ability to be observing other road users.
A lady behind me came off as a result of her bike getting caught in the tram tracks, but the car behind her, and the one in the next lane, stopped safely. We then picked up the lady and her bike, and I walked her to the nearest pub to have a few minutes sitting down and to make sure she was OK.

It's not hard...

[Grandad]

I've cycled round tram lines in Dublin, and was exceedingly careful around them - which obviously affected my ability to be observing other road users.
A lady behind me came off as a result of her bike getting caught in the tram tracks, but the car behind her, and the one in the next lane, stopped safely.

A happier outcome but an example of how every tramway system creates additional hazards for cyclists. Or does anyone know of one that is 100% acceptable?

[mjr]

A happier outcome but an example of how every tramway system creates additional hazards for cyclists. Or does anyone know of one that is 100% acceptable?

I think one of the Austrian systems now has no-groove velostrail tiles (see picture for an example) at all street crossings/runnings but I don't remember which one.

[Cyril Haearn]

A happier outcome but an example of how every tramway system creates additional hazards for cyclists. Or does anyone know of one that is 100% acceptable?

I think one of the Austrian systems now has no-groove velostrail tiles (see picture for an example) at all street crossings/runnings but I don't remember which one.

That is a nice picture of an old tram on reserved track

Can you explain how the tiles work, it is not clear from the photo. Diolch

[boliston]

Go onto google streetview, look at Princes Street, you will see that the council have painted the cycle route BETWEEN the tram lines, they built the tram route without any thought whatsoever for cyclists, they designed cycling OUT of the system. Now the council and others are saying we should use less direct, more long winded routes with multiple junctions (more risk) and hills. It beggars belief...

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.95034 ... 312!8i6656

That looks very odd - I think I would stick in the lane next to the tram lane that has no tramlines even if i wanted to go straight ahead