Are UK roads dangerous for cyclists?

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
reohn2
Posts: 45158
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Are UK roads dangerous for cyclists?

Post by reohn2 »

Axel_knut
I'm of the opinion CB is correct in his assesment of the dangers cyclists face on UK roads and I also agree with his solution when he said that if there's someone wondering about with a gun you don't hand out bulletproof vests to everyone,you take the gun off the gunman!
The sooner cyclists problems caused by errant and terrorist drivers ends the better,ATM a car is the terrorists most effective weapon.
Last edited by reohn2 on 2 Sep 2017, 11:05pm, edited 1 time in total.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
slowster
Moderator
Posts: 4629
Joined: 7 Jul 2017, 10:37am

Re: Are UK roads dangerous for cyclists?

Post by slowster »

axel_knutt » 2 Sep 2017, 3:37pm

reohn2 wrote:

axel_knutt wrote:

I’m about as competent as it gets and I am constantly doing risk assessments........Boardman’s mother, Carol, was killed last year while riding her bike in Connah’s Quay, Deeside. For months afterwards, he stopped cycling and has only recently got back in the saddle.


I'd say that makes him about as incompetent as it gets. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_heuristic


Why is he incompetent?


Because of the availability heuristic, which is why I linked to it.
The brains perception of probability depends on how easily something springs to mind, not on the true probability, so in the case where he has just lost his mother that will grossly distort his perception of risk. This is the same reason why you should ask a statistician about risk, and not a traffic cop or A&E doctor (and the reason why people dessert the railway in favour of the car after a recent train crash, even though rail is safer than road).

reohn2 wrote:
That's post with a perceived agenda,the OP is an open question :!:


It's a question begging a definition of 'dangerous', "How dangerous are UK roads for cyclists?" is a recognition of that.


We could look at hazard perception and avoidance.
Because only a small number of cyclists are KSI yearly doesn't automatically mean the roads are a safe place for cyclists,it needs a more detailed per mile or per hour ridden analysis to reveal a true figure.
On here we are a small number of enthusiats and very pro cycling,not easily dissuaded from riding on the roads,so it follows we're biased and prejudiced in favour of road riding,which there's nothing wrong with,but to claim statistics tell the whole story is to turn a blind eye to the reality of many people's fears,both non cyclists and enthusiastic cyclists.
IME there's a lot of bullying of road cyclists by motorists which needs cyclist to be pretty aware of,if they are not such people don't last long riding on the road.That's not to say they end up,KSI most on perceiving a danger they can't or won't tolerate just stop cycling or ride where they feel it's safer.

What good is a form of transport that leaves it's user stressed and concerned for their safety and welbeing?


Which is just my point, you can't reduce the issue to "is cycling dangerous, yes or no" when there are all sorts of factors involved, not least of which is that the question begs a definition of what "dangerous" means.


From everything that I have read of Chris Boardman's statements on cycling and road safety, he has struck me as someone who is intelligent, articulate and thoughtful/measured, with a very good understanding of the issues, and cyclists in the UK are fortunate that he has used his reputation and fame to promote improved road safety for cyclists.

The suggestion that his perspective is so distorted by the awful circumstances of his mother's death that he is 'incompetent' to be a good judge of the safety of many UK roads for cycling does not seem to me to be borne out by what he has said, and frankly I think both the suggestion and the manner it which it was made (dressing the suggestion up in a scientific concept intended to 'prove' that his judgement was poor, and also I suspect intended to show off how clever you are) were crass and offensive.

And actually you can reduce the issue to "is cycling dangerous, yes or no", because ultimately regardless of all the sorts of factors involved, what really matters is each individual's answer to that question, whether they are a cyclist, a potential cyclist, the parent of child who wants to ride bike, or the husband or wife of a cyclist. In fact the answer to that question from ordinary people, without trying to tell them what '"dangerous" means, is probably the best metric we have of whether cycling is dangerous or not in the most important sense of the word: not how many cycled miles per injury or fatality, but whether people feel happy to ride a bike on the road.
Last edited by slowster on 2 Sep 2017, 8:45pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bowedw
Posts: 359
Joined: 22 Feb 2011, 10:26pm

Re: Are UK roads dangerous for cyclists?

Post by Bowedw »

Speaking to a non cycling person in our village, not about cycling, but he came up with the comment that about twenty odd years ago he would have to step over numerous bikes to get to the door of the shop and now there he does not come across a single bike. He thought this was really sad and since his statement I have taken more notice and apart from the odd BMX ridden on the pavement have to agree. I did however see one youngster on a road bike a few days ago and felt a certain amount of anxiety for him as the majority of vehicles seem to be driven with no regard for cycles or pedestrians.
I live up a single track lane which is mainly 10 ft wide a couple of hundred yards from a two lane street, cycling down there today a transit van approached at speed with no intention of slowing down, fearing the worst I took up a position to slow him and immediately returned to the left. In response to my shout of "slow down" the immediate response was "its a 30 mph limit" It is a 20 actually, that is more than enough but when passing pedestrians, or bikes I slow down and even stop in this section. This sort of driving has, become the norm for the vast number of vehicles that use the road and do not attempt to reduce their speed when approaching vulnerable road users.
There has been in Wales a push on introducing 20 mph speed limits outside Primary Schools, while in theory this may seem a good idea the sections where it has been introduced are impossible to monitor, a previously unrestricted road has been included in a 30 but was safer before as most now seem to see 30 as safe for that section, whereas 15 was bordering on to fast.
The designation of rural lanes as cycle routes where contractors are hauling in crops on numerous large tractors with massive trailers and on their phones checking if they are clear to come through, with holiday makers having to jump onto hedges, as they head for the beach is not a pleasant sight and a similar tractor following me up a hill faster than I could muster with a field roller on a contraption in front obscuring his view and the longest plough I have ever seen on the back. Standing on the crossbar against the tall hedge was the best I could do and it was only when the drivers cab was passing me did he swerve away in shock at my presence.
Will I stop cycling, NO. Are the roads dangerous, DEFINATELY YES.
User avatar
RickH
Posts: 5832
Joined: 5 Mar 2012, 6:39pm
Location: Horwich, Lancs.

Re: Are UK roads dangerous for cyclists?

Post by RickH »

hondated wrote:After reading this thread I am even more glad I have recently taken up Angling. Got to be safer . Hasn't it !

A friend of mine broke his leg in 6 places going angling! :shock:

He accidentally stuck his foot down a rabbit hole on the way to a fishing spot on a nearby river. Fortunately he was still with it enough to call the emergency services rather than having to wait until he was missed at home.
Former member of the Cult of the Polystyrene Head Carbuncle.
BakfietsUK
Posts: 220
Joined: 4 Jul 2015, 10:35am

Re: Are UK roads dangerous for cyclists?

Post by BakfietsUK »

I think British roads are too safe for cars. I like the term "Moton" referred to earlier as it sounds like something out of Dr Who. It gives the right level of perversity to the situation. I find it provides an evocative description of the mind set of many individuals and indiscriminate use of weapons at their "fingertips".

Making roads easier (safer) for cars only makes cars and roads more dangerous for everyone else. tweaking corners and widening just make it more of a pain when you have to cross the road or manoeuvre in traffic. Slow it down and restrict, don't ease. After all who are you easing it for, certainly not cyclists and the like I would say.

Also make the cycle lanes better and use joined up thinking. No piecemeal fill ins here and there and a proper consistent well integrated system.

I am pretty sure I won't see the like of it here in my lifetime. That is if I don't emigrate.
reohn2
Posts: 45158
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Are UK roads dangerous for cyclists?

Post by reohn2 »

BakfietsUK wrote:I think British roads are too safe for cars. I like the term "Moton" referred to earlier as it sounds like something out of Dr Who. It gives the right level of perversity to the situation. I find it provides an evocative description of the mind set of many individuals and indiscriminate use of weapons at their "fingertips".

Making roads easier (safer) for cars only makes cars and roads more dangerous for everyone else. tweaking corners and widening just make it more of a pain when you have to cross the road or manoeuvre in traffic. Slow it down and restrict, don't ease. After all who are you easing it for, certainly not cyclists and the like I would say.

Also make the cycle lanes better and use joined up thinking. No piecemeal fill ins here and there and a proper consistent well integrated system.

I am pretty sure I won't see the like of it here in my lifetime. That is if I don't emigrate.

+1
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
bertgrower
Posts: 173
Joined: 2 Jun 2017, 6:47pm

Re: Are UK roads dangerous for cyclists?

Post by bertgrower »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09295gx

Go 38.54 to hear a responds to Chris Boardman interview on cycling safety
landsurfer
Posts: 5327
Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 9:13pm

Re: Are UK roads dangerous for cyclists?

Post by landsurfer »

Bowedw wrote:The designation of rural lanes as cycle routes where contractors are hauling in crops on numerous large tractors with massive trailers and on their phones checking if they are clear to come through, with holiday makers having to jump onto hedges, as they head for the beach is not a pleasant sight and a similar tractor following me up a hill faster than I could muster with a field roller on a contraption in front obscuring his view and the longest plough I have ever seen on the back.


Sorry ... but i assume your happy enough to eat the products from farming .... but you really don't want it to interfere with your cycling ?
I mostly cycle in a rural farming environment ....and am always happy to give way to the needs of farming ....
I like food ... it's all i eat ..... :)
But i do understand that the presence of Agri vehicles can be frightening to those not used to them...
Maybe we need to educate folk on what actually goes into their food. And digs it up. And carries it around .....
As a veggie i have to accept that my choice of food involves big machines, foreign workers, and gang-masters ......
But at least no animals are killed with bolt guns ...
No "Halal" horror....
“Quiet, calm deliberation disentangles every knot.”
Be more Mike.
The road goes on forever.
User avatar
horizon
Posts: 11275
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Cornwall

Re: Are UK roads dangerous for cyclists?

Post by horizon »

landsurfer wrote:
But i do understand that the presence of Agri vehicles can be frightening to those not used to them...
Maybe we need to educate folk on what actually goes into their food. And digs it up. And carries it around .....
As a veggie i have to accept that my choice of food involves big machines, foreign workers, and gang-masters ......


I think you may find that those ever bigger machines may one day leave you feeling hungrier than you anticipated given their effect on soil compaction. But that's another thread.
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
landsurfer
Posts: 5327
Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 9:13pm

Re: Are UK roads dangerous for cyclists?

Post by landsurfer »

horizon wrote:
I think you may find that those ever bigger machines may one day leave you feeling hungrier than you anticipated given their effect on soil compaction. But that's another thread.


I do suspect that the subject of soil compaction is high up on farmers list of important stuff. And possibly the farming machine manufactures...
“Quiet, calm deliberation disentangles every knot.”
Be more Mike.
The road goes on forever.
User avatar
mjr
Posts: 20308
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Are UK roads dangerous for cyclists?

Post by mjr »

But shouldn't those machines be put into a safe configuration before using public roads?
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 20700
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Are UK roads dangerous for cyclists?

Post by Vorpal »

landsurfer wrote:
horizon wrote:
I think you may find that those ever bigger machines may one day leave you feeling hungrier than you anticipated given their effect on soil compaction. But that's another thread.


I do suspect that the subject of soil compaction is high up on farmers list of important stuff. And possibly the farming machine manufactures...

Yes. It's one of the top design criteria. That's why they get ever bigger tyres. And double or triple sets of wheels.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Bowedw
Posts: 359
Joined: 22 Feb 2011, 10:26pm

Re: Are UK roads dangerous for cyclists?

Post by Bowedw »

Coming from a farming background, I am well aware of the need for agricultural traffic on narrow lanes, but I cannot support that it is perfectly acceptable for them to travel recklessly on narrow windy lanes with no visibility just on the telephone message from another tractor that no vehicle is coming towards them, ignore pedestrians etc, which whether we like it or not, have a right to be on the road. I would also suggest that the income from holiday visitors provide more jobs for local people than agriculture, but this has nothing to do with the danger on roads, unless we close our holiday industry during harvest time.
Many of these lanes are designated as National Cyle routes, this may look ok on paper but reality can be very different.
Also without refreshing my memory the licencing law with regard to who is legally entitled to be in charge of such vehicles, to the extent that Farmers are even expressing concern of the younger drivers experience, the pressure of needing workers for a short term harvest season seem to be the overiding factor on this.
User avatar
mjr
Posts: 20308
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Are UK roads dangerous for cyclists?

Post by mjr »

Bowedw wrote:I would also suggest that the income from holiday visitors provide more jobs for local people than agriculture, but this has nothing to do with the danger on roads, unless we close our holiday industry during harvest time.

Tourism (about 9%) provides more UK jobs than agriculture (1%) but tourism jobs tend to be disproportionately temporary, young, low-education and part-time. In 2014, the Office for National Statistics found that almost half of tourism workers were on so-called "zero hours contracts". So do you feel that tourism merits more special treatment than agriculture?
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
Bowedw
Posts: 359
Joined: 22 Feb 2011, 10:26pm

Re: Are UK roads dangerous for cyclists?

Post by Bowedw »

This is not a contest between Industries, even though the race for seasonal low pay is rife in both industries and many many more. The acid test would be if you would be prepared to cycle or walk with your family along these roads when these tractors are operating. Bearing in mind that many are designated as National cycling routes. A proper risk assessment would in my opinion find these routes well below an acceptable level of safety at peak harvest time.
Modern harvesting is mainly done by Contractors who operate upwards of 4 tractors per silage cutter, the exact number would vary on how long the travel time to the farm takes, it is pretty intense traffic not the one off tractor. They normally move from farm to farm. In the last week combine harvesters have been going past my house on their way to the coastal farms and will work their way inland as the weeks progress. I have on occasions being asked if I will drive up the road and stop vehicles coming down so a total jamb can be avoided. Not come across and cyclists or pedestrians but would stop them as well, and no I do not have a legal right to do so. Maybe this year some cyclists may appear as the road seems to be on Strava.
Post Reply