Carol Boardman death - case sent for trial

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
reohn2
Posts: 32262
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: So what will he be charged with?

Postby reohn2 » 17 Dec 2018, 11:22pm

landsurfer wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Whenever I'm overtaken too closely by motor vehicles and get the chance to remonstrate with them,which is more often than one might think due to TL's and traffic jams within the next half mile or less,the first thing I say to the driver is "if either one of us had made a mistake back there,I would've been in hospital or worse and you'd have had no driving licence".
The response is sometimes derisory but mostly it's met with an apology or no reply at all.
The thing is that too many drivers just don't see the consequences of their actions,end of.They just don't see a human being before them,rather just a thin thing on the road in front a like to the left that needs overtaking asap,and no one is doing anything of significance to dispel their erroneous outlook on human beings that choose to cycle.
That is why occasionally all the fatal ingredients come together at once and someone loses a mother,father,brother,sister or child and the grief lasts forever.
The erroneous belief by drivers that everything will be OK this time is reinforced every time a driver overtakes a cyclist too closely and doesn't make contact.


+1 .. A series of unfortunate events :(

NO.
Defintly NO.
It's dangerous driving.
Careless driving is a potentially non dangerous driving error.
Dangerous driving is when the consequences of such driving are potentially or actually dangerous to others or the self,surely.
How anyone cannot be found guilty of dangerous driving if their driving is potentially dangerous is beyond me,but it seems the UK courts find it difficult to define such driving as dangerous due a lack of will.
The sooner that will is found the sooner driving will become safer and especially around vulnerable road users IMHO.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

landsurfer
Posts: 4086
Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 9:13pm
Location: Rotherham

Re: So what will he be charged with?

Postby landsurfer » 17 Dec 2018, 11:39pm

reohn2 wrote:
landsurfer wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Whenever I'm overtaken too closely by motor vehicles and get the chance to remonstrate with them,which is more often than one might think due to TL's and traffic jams within the next half mile or less,the first thing I say to the driver is "if either one of us had made a mistake back there,I would've been in hospital or worse and you'd have had no driving licence".
The response is sometimes derisory but mostly it's met with an apology or no reply at all.
The thing is that too many drivers just don't see the consequences of their actions,end of.They just don't see a human being before them,rather just a thin thing on the road in front a like to the left that needs overtaking asap,and no one is doing anything of significance to dispel their erroneous outlook on human beings that choose to cycle.
That is why occasionally all the fatal ingredients come together at once and someone loses a mother,father,brother,sister or child and the grief lasts forever.
The erroneous belief by drivers that everything will be OK this time is reinforced every time a driver overtakes a cyclist too closely and doesn't make contact.


+1 .. A series of unfortunate events :(

NO.
Defintly NO.
It's dangerous driving.
What defines dangerous driving ?
Careless driving is a potentially non dangerous driving error.
Dangerous driving is when the consequences of such driving are potentially or actually dangerous to others or the self,surely.
Your definition of dangerous driving seems to imply intent
How anyone cannot be found guilty of dangerous driving if their driving is potentially dangerous is beyond me,but it seems the UK courts find it difficult to define such driving as dangerous due a lack of will.
Got up this morning, kissed my wife goodbye and set off to dangerously drive in order to harm someone.
The sooner that will is found the sooner driving will become safer and especially around vulnerable road users IMHO.

Law .. surely you want law rather than revenge ?
RSF.
Audax UK.
The road goes on forever.

the snail
Posts: 130
Joined: 5 Aug 2011, 3:11pm

Re: So what will he be charged with?

Postby the snail » 18 Dec 2018, 12:46am

reohn2 wrote:Careless driving is a potentially non dangerous driving error.
Dangerous driving is when the consequences of such driving are potentially or actually dangerous to others or the self,surely.
How anyone cannot be found guilty of dangerous driving if their driving is potentially dangerous is beyond me,but it seems the UK courts find it difficult to define such driving as dangerous due a lack of will.
The sooner that will is found the sooner driving will become safer and especially around vulnerable road users IMHO.

It's about the standard of driving rather than the danger to others - driving of a standard worse than that of a competent driver is careless, driving far below that standard is dangerous driving. In non-legal speak, either is dangerous. I think there's a good case for getting rid of the dangerous/careless distinction, and letting the magistrate/judge decide the seriousness of the offence when sentencing

landsurfer
Posts: 4086
Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 9:13pm
Location: Rotherham

Re: So what will he be charged with?

Postby landsurfer » 18 Dec 2018, 1:05am

the snail wrote:It's about the standard of driving rather than the danger to others - driving of a standard worse than that of a competent driver is careless, driving far below that standard is dangerous driving. In non-legal speak, either is dangerous. I think there's a good case for getting rid of the dangerous/careless distinction, and letting the magistrate/judge decide the seriousness of the offence when sentencing


Can you give us a link to the Competent Licensed Driver Standard please .. i will be a BS or EN standard ... of course i don't expect you to do that ..lets leave competency management to the professionals ...
RSF.
Audax UK.
The road goes on forever.

Barks
Posts: 207
Joined: 14 Oct 2016, 5:27pm

Re: Carol Boardman death - case sent for trial

Postby Barks » 18 Dec 2018, 9:25am

The incidents and comments above all have a common thread - far too many drivers do not take sufficient account of what might happen. Going too fast for the conditions or road layout and not giving sufficient space for others are all symptoms of the complancency and impatience that ultimately lead to incidents that sometimes tragically result in people being KSI. What we need is the occurrences that do not result in KSI being prosecuted, the ‘near misses’ are the early warning signs yet the police and the legal system dismiss these out of hand. Even when drivers amass 12 points or more they are still allowed to drive - it is completely unacceptable and if it was occurring in any other walk of life it just would not be tolerated. Zero tolerance of poor driving standards is the right way forward yet continually we see outrageous outcomes being seen as minor infringements that do not merit punishment.

thirdcrank
Posts: 27545
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Carol Boardman death - case sent for trial

Postby thirdcrank » 18 Dec 2018, 9:35am

My thoughts entirely, but in addition to the near misses, there are plenty of "damage only" crashes being ignored, which would kill or maim a vulnerable road user.

reohn2
Posts: 32262
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: So what will he be charged with?

Postby reohn2 » 18 Dec 2018, 10:43am

landsurfer wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
landsurfer wrote:
+1 .. A series of unfortunate events :(

NO.
Defintly NO.
It's dangerous driving.
What defines dangerous driving ?
Careless driving is a potentially non dangerous driving error.
Dangerous driving is when the consequences of such driving are potentially or actually dangerous to others or the self,surely.
Your definition of dangerous driving seems to imply intent
How anyone cannot be found guilty of dangerous driving if their driving is potentially dangerous is beyond me,but it seems the UK courts find it difficult to define such driving as dangerous due a lack of will.
Got up this morning, kissed my wife goodbye and set off to dangerously drive in order to harm someone.
The sooner that will is found the sooner driving will become safer and especially around vulnerable road users IMHO.

Law .. surely you want law rather than revenge ?

Yes I do and the law is not being upheld,time and time again in favour of the motorist,there's a hole thread devoted to hi-lighting how that's the case in the UK today.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

reohn2
Posts: 32262
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Carol Boardman death - case sent for trial

Postby reohn2 » 18 Dec 2018, 10:50am

Barks wrote:The incidents and comments above all have a common thread - far too many drivers do not take sufficient account of what might happen. Going too fast for the conditions or road layout and not giving sufficient space for others are all symptoms of the complancency and impatience that ultimately lead to incidents that sometimes tragically result in people being KSI. What we need is the occurrences that do not result in KSI being prosecuted, the ‘near misses’ are the early warning signs yet the police and the legal system dismiss these out of hand. Even when drivers amass 12 points or more they are still allowed to drive - it is completely unacceptable and if it was occurring in any other walk of life it just would not be tolerated. Zero tolerance of poor driving standards is the right way forward yet continually we see outrageous outcomes being seen as minor infringements that do not merit punishment.

Spot on.
Meanwhile police funding numbers are continually reduced,reduced to such an extent that proper and thorough investigation of such criminals isn't carried out because of the at lack of funding.
Simply put,it's a free for all on UK roads where might is right and the vulnerable are swept aside in favour of the mighty.
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I cycle therefore I am.

MikeF
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Joined: 11 Nov 2012, 9:24am
Location: On the borders of the four South East Counties

Re: So what will he be charged with?

Postby MikeF » 18 Dec 2018, 1:54pm

reohn2 wrote:Careless driving is a potentially non dangerous driving error.
Dangerous driving is when the consequences of such driving are potentially or actually dangerous to others or the self,surely.
However the driver that killed Mrs Boardman I think is now being charged with careless driving.
There should not be a distinction between careless and dangerous driving. They should both be replaced with something like "driving that caused injury". There wouldn't then be "loopholes" or arguments whether it was careless or dangerous.
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master

MikeF
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Joined: 11 Nov 2012, 9:24am
Location: On the borders of the four South East Counties

Re: Carol Boardman death - case sent for trial

Postby MikeF » 18 Dec 2018, 2:00pm

Bonefishblues wrote:
MikeF wrote:
Mrs Boardman, a keen cyclist, died after she fell off her bike and Rosney drove over her at a roundabout on 16 July 2016.
It's very unusual for cyclists to simply "fall off" their bike - especially experienced ones in mid summer. She might have been knocked off her bike or lost her balance trying to swerve, brake or colliding etc, but this sounds like victim blaming.

I read she was knocked from her bike by a collision with a pickup, or am I mistaken.
I quoted a BBC web page. It's all down to how it's reported. The problem with the way it's reported influences people's views. "She fell off her bicycle and was run" over makes it sound like her fault for falling off.
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master

reohn2
Posts: 32262
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Carol Boardman death - case sent for trial

Postby reohn2 » 18 Dec 2018, 2:31pm

From a BBC report in July:-
Prosecution counsel John Philpotts said the case against Mr Rosney, from Connah's Quay, Flintshire, was one which "tragically illustrates the potential extreme danger of using a mobile telephone while driving"
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I cycle therefore I am.

pwa
Posts: 8608
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: So what will he be charged with?

Postby pwa » 18 Dec 2018, 2:47pm

MikeF wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Careless driving is a potentially non dangerous driving error.
Dangerous driving is when the consequences of such driving are potentially or actually dangerous to others or the self,surely.
However the driver that killed Mrs Boardman I think is now being charged with careless driving.
There should not be a distinction between careless and dangerous driving. They should both be replaced with something like "driving that caused injury". There wouldn't then be "loopholes" or arguments whether it was careless or dangerous.

It has always been difficult to understand how any driving error that resulted in death could be considered anything other than dangerous.

MikeF
Posts: 3586
Joined: 11 Nov 2012, 9:24am
Location: On the borders of the four South East Counties

Re: Carol Boardman death - case sent for trial

Postby MikeF » 18 Dec 2018, 3:32pm

reohn2 wrote:From a BBC report in July:-
Prosecution counsel John Philpotts said the case against Mr Rosney, from Connah's Quay, Flintshire, was one which "tragically illustrates the potential extreme danger of using a mobile telephone while driving"
So how can it be careless?? Legal definitions I suppose.
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master

reohn2
Posts: 32262
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Carol Boardman death - case sent for trial

Postby reohn2 » 18 Dec 2018, 3:38pm

MikeF wrote:
reohn2 wrote:From a BBC report in July:-
Prosecution counsel John Philpotts said the case against Mr Rosney, from Connah's Quay, Flintshire, was one which "tragically illustrates the potential extreme danger of using a mobile telephone while driving"
So how can it be careless?? Legal definitions I suppose.

It's not careless driving,it's dangerous driving and the proof is the death of Carol Boardman.
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I cycle therefore I am.

brooksby
Posts: 276
Joined: 21 Aug 2014, 9:02am
Location: Bristol

Re: So what will he be charged with?

Postby brooksby » 18 Dec 2018, 4:50pm

landsurfer wrote:
the snail wrote:It's about the standard of driving rather than the danger to others - driving of a standard worse than that of a competent driver is careless, driving far below that standard is dangerous driving. In non-legal speak, either is dangerous. I think there's a good case for getting rid of the dangerous/careless distinction, and letting the magistrate/judge decide the seriousness of the offence when sentencing


Can you give us a link to the Competent Licensed Driver Standard please .. i will be a BS or EN standard ... of course i don't expect you to do that ..lets leave competency management to the professionals ...


I've read elsewhere, shouldn't the test be whether or not someone would fail their driving test (if they made a particular manoeuvre or undertook a particular activity while taking said test). If they would have failed, then their driving licence goes through the shredder. As an absolute minimum.