Turning Right - Rule 180

[Ruadh495]

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Generally there is so little room that the centre position is uncomfortable for a bike, impossible for a car. If there's no room to allow traffic behind to pass anyway, it's better to move to the left before turning right as this increases the radius of the turn and makes you less likely to cross the centre line of the road you are entering.

If you frequently need to do this on a normal car or van on most roads, you have not learned to drive correctly. The steering wheel only needs to be turned to tighten your turning circle. Many drivers avoid this though, either through ignorance or laziness

My point is not that you "need" to do it, but that if there is no advantage in moving to the centre (as there isn't space for vehicles behind to pass anyway) you might as well take a wider turn. You will have more visibility and will reduce tyre wear (if nothing else) by not turning unnecessarily sharply.

[Flinders]

Very few single-lane-each-way roads I can think of here are wide enough for a car to pass safely on the left if a car is turning right, especially with modern cars being wider and wider.
I see so many of cars going up on pavements to undertake right-turning vehicles that I try to make sure when I turn right that I don't leave enough space to tempt them to do it.

[drossall]

However, a bike (or motorbike) can get through a gap on the left of a right-turning car. When driving, our road positioning should allow that even if there isn't space for a car to do so. And rule 180 specifically states that drivers should not behave as you suggest.

[mjr]

However, a bike (or motorbike) can get through a gap on the left of a right-turning car. When driving, our road positioning should allow that even if there isn't space for a car to do so. And rule 180 specifically states that drivers should not behave as you suggest.

So abandon any pedestrians to fend for themselves, as long as you obey highway code rules rendered outdated by road design changes and the cuts to traffic policing?

[Pete Owens]

Not sure I've ever seen a junction (except one with two marked lanes) where a car moving to the centre line would allow motor vehicles to pass on the left safely (as opposed to squeezing through).

Here's some all within a short distance on the A390.
I'll gather together two or three via Google Streetview.

This junction. In either direction.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.51649 ... 312!8i6656

Here, turning right.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.51670 ... 312!8i6656

Here, turning right.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.51654 ... 312!8i6656

There's absolutely LOADS of them. Not just locally.

Three examples where there most definitely is not sufficient width to overtake within the lane as opposed to squeezing past.

If I was making a right turn on a bicycle at any of those junctions I would avoid positioning myself to close to the centre line in order to prevent being sandwiched between two streams of traffic. And if the driver behind me posted here complaining about about cyclists getting in his way I doubt he would be given any sympathy.

[Flinders]

However, a bike (or motorbike) can get through a gap on the left of a right-turning car. When driving, our road positioning should allow that even if there isn't space for a car to do so. And rule 180 specifically states that drivers should not behave as you suggest.

No it doesn't. In the illustration, there is space for a car to go up the left and remain on the carriageway. I'm clearly talking about when there isn't.

[Mick F]

Three examples where there most definitely is not sufficient width to overtake within the lane as opposed to squeezing past.

Oh yes there is. Most definitely there is.

Some drivers to it correctly, and the traffic can carry on.
Some drivers do it incorrectly, and the traffic piles up behind.

[Bmblbzzz]

There used to be loads of them on the A17 in South Holland, but when I checked them on Streetview, they all seem to have been painted with centre hatching like https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.76922 ... 312!8i6656 or had their shoulders widened like https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.77283 ... 312!8i6656 to reduce them from WS2 to S2 widths through the junction.

Surely the centre hatching shows there is room for a car to pass on the left while another waits to turn right. That's what the hatching, and specifically the turning areas within it, are for.

Edit: I've realised you mean that the creation of the central turning lane indicates the road is wide enough for three vehicles but not for four; if a vehicle waiting to turn right kept left of the centre line (let's hope it would), there probably wouldn't be enough width for a car to pass to its left. Sometimes there are so many examples in these threads the original idea gets obscured.

[drossall]

So abandon any pedestrians to fend for themselves, as long as you obey highway code rules rendered outdated by road design changes and the cuts to traffic policing?

I think you are saying that drivers should turn right from the middle of their lane in order to protect pedestrians, by not giving enough space for other motorists to squeeze up the side and potentially use the pavement to get by? I'm not convinced. You're just as likely to get it wrong. And the HC doesn't really envisage one user trying to enforce the rules for another, especially by ignoring the guidance that he/she himself should follow.

No it doesn't. In the illustration, there is space for a car to go up the left and remain on the carriageway. I'm clearly talking about when there isn't.

To be honest, I was just pointing out that this is car-centric thinking. The argument is, I think, unless you can leave a car width to your left, leave virtually nothing. This ignores two wheelers, who can get through a smaller gap quite safely. Why obstruct them and not cars?

Both are interesting lines of argument, but the gist is that I'll use my own version of the HC, even where it affects the safety and convenience of others. I'll look at some road situations with new eyes to see if I can see such cases in practice, but I still think that most lane blocking is just poor driving. Possibly by me on occasion; no-one is perfect.