Doctor heal thy self

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bertgrower
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Doctor heal thy self

Post by bertgrower »

Tuesday, 12 September 2017

Park Square E, London NW1 saw cycle courier on gear bicycle no rear brake

Portland Place, London W1, saw cycle courier on fix track frame no front brakes

Hallam St, London W1, saw cyclist on bicycle with back pedalling brake no front brake

Parliament St, London SW1 saw cyclist on bicycle with flip flop hub but on the freewheel with front brake but no rear brake .

I spoke to the last cyclist at the lights surrounded by large cycling audience asking where is his rear brake. He said it not working I said it is missing . He said I was talking to the wrong person. He was casual well dress and well-spoken/
IMHO he had attitude.

Question
Did I do wrong by confronting the cyclist?
In lights of the death at Old Street should the cycling community starting policing ourselves?
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meic
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Re: Doctor heal thy self

Post by meic »

In lights of the death at Old Street should the cycling community starting policing ourselves?

About as good an idea as me trying to police other drivers when I am in my car.
Despite the fact they kill hundreds for every one killed by a cyclist.
Yma o Hyd
thirdcrank
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Re: Doctor heal thy self

Post by thirdcrank »

bertgrower wrote: ... Portland Place, London W1, saw cycle courier on fix track frame no front brakes ...


That's the one that intrigues me.

To recycle a by-now well-known phrase or saying "some people think they are invincible."

In the ordinary run of things, I see plenty of bikes with dodgy brakes as well as dodgy everything else but few seem to get much serious use. I'd class a cycle courier in central London as a serious user and if seeing one of their number in the dock of the Old Bailey hasn't concentrated some minds, nothing will, including a chiding from other riders. As I've recently suggested on another thread, we could see streamlining of the rules to deal with this involving a police power to seize bikes with inadequate brakes. Not so long ago, a suggestion that there might be streamlining of dealing with pavement cycling would have provoked derision.

Talking of derision, there are all the anecdotes about police who couldn't tell a fixed-wheel from a fixed grin. They make me squirm a bit but really they just illustrate how little priority has been given in the past to enforcing the law on pedal cycle brakes. That may change.
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gaz
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Re: Doctor heal thy self

Post by gaz »

meic wrote:
In lights of the death at Old Street should the cycling community starting policing ourselves?

About as good an idea as me trying to police other drivers when I am in my car.
Despite the fact they kill hundreds for every one killed by a cyclist.

+1
High on a cocktail of flossy teacakes and marmalade
tatanab
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Re: Doctor heal thy self

Post by tatanab »

gaz wrote:
meic wrote:
In lights of the death at Old Street should the cycling community starting policing ourselves?

About as good an idea as me trying to police other drivers when I am in my car.
Despite the fact they kill hundreds for every one killed by a cyclist.

+1

+1 more.

As for enforcement. I think it is unreasonable to expect the average police officer to know every aspect of law. For example, there is a category of adult pedal cycles that have only front brakes (but not a fixed wheel) and a category that has only rear brakes - I would not expect the PC to know this any more than I would expect them to recognise a coaster hub.
thirdcrank
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Re: Doctor heal thy self

Post by thirdcrank »

tatanab wrote: ... As for enforcement. I think it is unreasonable to expect the average police officer to know every aspect of law. For example, there is a category of adult pedal cycles that have only front brakes (but not a fixed wheel) and a category that has only rear brakes - I would not expect the PC to know this any more than I would expect them to recognise a coaster hub.


That's pretty much the point I was clumsily trying to make, but before I became involved with cycle campaigning I'm not sure if I'd have known the difference between a footpath beside a road (footway) or a footpath elsewhere (a right of way on foot only.) That didn't stop David Blunkett streamlining enforcement by introducing fixed penalties as a populist policy and populism may well be the driving force here.

There might even be volunteers from this forum's membership to volunteer as special constables to help with the technical aspects. (Not me, I hasten to add.)
reohn2
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Re: Doctor heal thy self

Post by reohn2 »

bertgrower wrote:Tuesday, 12 September 2017

Park Square E, London NW1 saw cycle courier on gear bicycle no rear brake

Portland Place, London W1, saw cycle courier on fix track frame no front brakes

Hallam St, London W1, saw cyclist on bicycle with back pedalling brake no front brake

Parliament St, London SW1 saw cyclist on bicycle with flip flop hub but on the freewheel with front brake but no rear brake .

I spoke to the last cyclist at the lights surrounded by large cycling audience asking where is his rear brake. He said it not working I said it is missing . He said I was talking to the wrong person. He was casual well dress and well-spoken/
IMHO he had attitude.

Question
Did I do wrong by confronting the cyclist?
In lights of the death at Old Street should the cycling community starting policing ourselves?

You were indeed talking to the wrong person,you should've been talking to the police if you could find a bobby interested.
As long as there is no effective policing there'll be people breaking the law.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
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ANTONISH
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Re: Doctor heal thy self

Post by ANTONISH »

What is the position of a Dutch tourist in the UK riding a bicycle with a single rear back pedalling brake? - ( legal in Holland ).
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mjr
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Re: Doctor heal thy self

Post by mjr »

ANTONISH wrote:What is the position of a Dutch tourist in the UK riding a bicycle with a single rear back pedalling brake? - ( legal in Holland ).

Perfectly legal on temporary imports here too: "Provided your bike has at least one brake already (fixed wheel does not count as a brake internationally), its welcome to Britain!" Only for visitors, though: my Dutch-made bike had to have its forks changed for brake-compatible ones to be sold in the UK.

Also, I doubt the OP could tell if the first or last bikes had foot brakes, plus confronting other road users is against the advice in http://highwaycode.info/rule/147 - basically, it's road rage, even if you're all passive-aggressive about it. Don't do it. As others have said, this one's for the police to enforce during vehicle checks and treat with the appropriate (lack of, in this case IMO) priority.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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SA_SA_SA
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Re: Doctor heal thy self

Post by SA_SA_SA »

mjr wrote:.... plus confronting other road users is against the advice in http://highwaycode.info/rule/147 - basically, it's road rage, even if you're all passive-aggressive about it. Don't do it. ....


That advisory rule-part seems to be advice on dealing with someone deliberately driving/riding badly, who might be expected to possibly take umbrage at having that pointed out... I don't see where you get the 'observer's civil speech' = 'basically its road rage' from: the advice , to me, seems to be that a bad driver may respond badly (ie road rage on their part) to having their driving criticised): that is completely different.

I don't see how that advisory rule can be read as applicable to simply informing someone, in a civil manner, that their bike is broken in a way which contravenes the law or is missing a part which causes it to contravene the law (and may thus land them in court, especially if it is contributory to an injury to another innocent road user). They may not have noticed/known about the law.

Similarly, I think its perfectly reasonable to civilly point out to someone that their rear lamp has failed / is off / missing: thats just being helpful, they can do what they want with the information.

Both are of course optional.
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Mick F
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Re: Doctor heal thy self

Post by Mick F »

reohn2 wrote:You were indeed talking to the wrong person,you should've been talking to the police if you could find a bobby interested.
As long as there is no effective policing there'll be people breaking the law.
Yes, indeed.

The more that the public speak to the police about this sort of thing, the more they'll get tired of it and have to do something.
Maybe the pubic gets what the public wants, and most of the public couldn't care one way or another.
Mick F. Cornwall
thirdcrank
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Re: Doctor heal thy self

Post by thirdcrank »

IIRC, part of Mr Alliston's case was that he didn't know the law and nobody told him when he bought the bike that it wasn't street legal.

As far as I can see, this is covered by s 81 (6) Road Traffic Act 1988.

81 Regulation of brakes, bells etc., on pedal cycles.
...
(6) If a person sells or supplies or offers to sell or supply a cycle in contravention of any prohibition imposed by regulations made by virtue of subsection (5) above, he is guilty of an offence, unless he proves—
(a) that it was sold, supplied or offered for export from Great Britain, or
(b) that he had reasonable cause to believe that it would not be used on a road in Great Britain, or would not be so used until it had been put into a condition in which it might lawfully be so used.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/81

I wonder if describing a bike as a track bike is adequate to comply with s81 (6)(b) :?

I've had a look at some ads. Plenty on ebay and the few I've looked at don't refer to this. Evan's have this information:
The fork will take a brake if required for road use but this bike is strictly for closed-track use only as specified.

https://www.evanscycles.com/hoy-fiorenz ... e-EV195028
Tangled Metal
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Re: Doctor heal thy self

Post by Tangled Metal »

meic wrote:
In lights of the death at Old Street should the cycling community starting policing ourselves?

About as good an idea as me trying to police other drivers when I am in my car.
Despite the fact they kill hundreds for every one killed by a cyclist.

Hard to speak to a driver on the road but a cyclist is easy. Catch them up and chat away at the next lights.

It's irrelevant that cars kill more ppl. It's a simple act of talking to someone about their bike not meeting relevant regulations for roadworthiness. So do you not see a benefit to taking an easy action that could make the roads safer? Nothing might ever happen to the cyclist but it might.

I'm sorry but I see no reason that car killers should stop you doing your bit through confronting or educating such cyclists. I don't understand the logic over the motoring deaths preventing simple, positive acts to improve safety in any way. Unless you think raising awareness of adequate and legal braking isn't positive of course.
bertgrower
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Re: Doctor heal thy self

Post by bertgrower »

The Old Street cyclist said he did not know the law. Well when I was around 17 years of age I read the highway code, should we teach that in schools?
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meic
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Re: Doctor heal thy self

Post by meic »

I'm sorry but I see no reason that car killers should stop you doing your bit through confronting or educating such cyclists.

They dont, it is the same reason which prevents you knocking on a car door to point out that it is illegal to use their phone while driving which prevents you from pointing out to a cyclist that their brakes (or lights) do not meet the current regulations.

I imagine that you dont stop every nocturnal cyclist without pedal reflectors to point out the error of their ways. A good reason for that being that even though it is an absolute contravention of the regulations, the impact of breaking this regulation is minimal.

So we do see that the impact of the offence should be considered as well as the ease of giving your lecture. When it comes to the impact, addressing offending motorists will yield 100 times the benefits for people's efforts.
Yma o Hyd
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