Cycle Parking Would you pay?

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rmurphy195
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Re: Cycle Parking Would you pay?

Postby rmurphy195 » 26 Sep 2017, 7:34pm

PH wrote:
NUKe wrote:The question was would you be prepared to pay if the option was available, and if so how much.

Yes.
Probably a quid or so for an hour, £3 for the day, cheaper if I was a regular user.
For that I would expect it to be completely secure storage for both bike and kit, with the organisers taking responsibility in any failure of that security.
IMO that level of security means somewhere staffed, rather than cages or lockers. I don't know the economies of such enterprises, but I expect they're only viable if combined with something else. I don't expect my cycle storage to be subsidised and I'd like to see the end of subsidised car parking.


I don't know of any subsidised car parking.

I do know of car parking where there is no explicit parking fee but the cost of the products you are buying or the facilities you re using includes an overhead for customer parking. This includes for example some (not all) shopping centres, park and rides, supermarkets. Very useful when I'm transporting elderly or infirm relatives, carrying heavy items etc.

And of course my own driveway!

The only free parking is on a park and ride where there is no parking fee but you do pay for the bus journey - its free if you park the car then unload your bike and pedal to your destination.

There are places where you pay a parking fee and then get to fee refunded, or partially refunded,if you buy products or services from the car park owner.

I do know of many places where there is cycle parking on the same basis as the car parking - in this I count places that provide stands that you can lock your bike to, for example the facilities at the relatively new Longbridge Town Centre (which has a good number of stands in the multi storey car park, away from the cars and near the lifts!), and my local Morrisons supermarket. Longbridge has a 3 hour limit for car parking after which charges are incurred but there is no limit as far as I know for bike parking.
Brompton, Condor Heritage, creaky joints and thinning white (formerly grey) hair
""You know you're getting old when it's easier to ride a bike than to get on and off it" - quote from observant jogger !

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mjr
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Re: Cycle Parking Would you pay?

Postby mjr » 26 Sep 2017, 8:23pm

rmurphy195 wrote:
PH wrote:...and I'd like to see the end of subsidised car parking.


I don't know of any subsidised car parking.

Most car parking in this country is subsidised in some way, often in sneaky ways because subsidised car parking is often located in urban centres with relatively low car ownership levels where any opposition to the subsidy will probably take root first. In case I've not linked it before: http://freakonomics.com/2014/08/20/park ... nscript-2/
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GarethF
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Re: Cycle Parking Would you pay?

Postby GarethF » 27 Sep 2017, 9:32pm

I was recently fairly horrified to discover that the newly refitted cycle parking facilities at Durham railway station are now restricted to users who pay a ten quid annual subscription in order to have access via a key fob chip activated gate. The new racks with plastic mouldings looked pretty swish compared with the ratty old sheffield type stands when they were installed. I suspect capacity overall may be reduced. However, it is unlikely I will ever have chance to test them out as I leave my bike at the station maybe a dozen times a year at best so I wouldn't consider it worthwhile. A reduced selection of the crummy old racks are still present in a sort of ghetto at the side of the platform.

If I were a more regular user I would probably consider it. But I would expect to be more or less guaranteed to have a space available when I needed it.

Given that cycling is supposed to be the democratic cheap mode of transport, I feel there is something fundamentally wrong with charging to park. Clearly the equipment has to be funded somehow. But it does seem something of a disincentive when headlines suggest that cycling is a sustainable option and actively encouraged by the powers that be. Perhaps this has always been the case. Ten years ago I was paying ten pounds to park at the station for the day, which seemed steep when added onto the fifteen quid return fare, particularly when the total cost of fuel for the round trip by car would have been less then a tenner. It did save me dealing with rush hour traffic but there were days when it would take until after lunch to break even. It just goes to show that even taking cost of ownership into account car travel has become ridiculously cheap compared with almost any other form of transport.

PH
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Re: Cycle Parking Would you pay?

Postby PH » 28 Sep 2017, 1:50pm

GarethF wrote:I was recently fairly horrified to discover that the newly refitted cycle parking facilities at Durham railway station are now restricted to users who pay a ten quid annual subscription in order to have access via a key fob chip activated gate. The new racks with plastic mouldings looked pretty swish compared with the ratty old sheffield type stands when they were installed. I suspect capacity overall may be reduced. However, it is unlikely I will ever have chance to test them out as I leave my bike at the station maybe a dozen times a year at best so I wouldn't consider it worthwhile.


£10 for about a dozen uses = 84p each.
Fair enough that you object paying for a service you think should be supplied free for you, in which case any charge will be too high, but once accepted there is a charge it's hard to imaging 84p as something to be horrified about.

rmurphy195
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Re: Cycle Parking Would you pay?

Postby rmurphy195 » 4 Oct 2017, 11:52pm

Here's an interesting aspect to the "subsidised parking" viewpoint.

Birmingham Council are introducing parking charges for people going to Cannon Hill park this week.

Cycled to there yesterday for my £1 cuppa at the garden tearoom, and an interesting conversation between 2 elderly gentlemen at the next table, about the very same subject. And elderly lady arrived, using a walking stick. They were obviously friends and met up at the tea room for a cuppa and a chin wag, as people do.

The lady in question it seems goes to the park almost every day "about 250 times per year" was what I overheard, by car 'cos she can't walk too far and finds it difficult getting on and off buses (and getting to the bus stop I imagine!). The same I would think applies to her friends and I'm sure many other people of theier age who use the tearoom as a meeting place

The car park charge is about £2 for up to 2 hours (I think), rising to £4 for longer than that.

So the lady will end up paying an extra £500 per year to have her cup of tea - so her cuppa (assuming she only has one) currently costing £1 will now cost £3.

All the people round the table are Birmingham council tax payers, as am I, so they are at present subsidising themselves. As is my 95 year old father in law who lives about a mile from the park, but whose health is such that to go to the park means picking him up in the car to take him. And now we have to pay when we get there. Nice.
Brompton, Condor Heritage, creaky joints and thinning white (formerly grey) hair
""You know you're getting old when it's easier to ride a bike than to get on and off it" - quote from observant jogger !

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mjr
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Re: Cycle Parking Would you pay?

Postby mjr » 5 Oct 2017, 10:51am

rmurphy195 wrote:So the lady will end up paying an extra £500 per year to have her cup of tea - so her cuppa (assuming she only has one) currently costing £1 will now cost £3.

Hang on hang on hang on - if she's driving there, it's currently costing her much more than £1. This sort of selective cost-counting is a big problem with short-journey motoring - if people have to pay more often towards hogging space that 10 bikes could be parked in and it makes the costs of their transport choices more obvious, isn't that generally a good thing? Of course some people lose out but how can you avoid that completely and still reduce people cluttering up the park with cars?
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Stevek76
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Re: Cycle Parking Would you pay?

Postby Stevek76 » 5 Oct 2017, 2:01pm

rmurphy195 wrote:I don't know of any subsidised car parking.


Every 'free' spot on the public highway is effectively subsidised to a degree.

As for pay for cycle parking. No, not really much need for me, my about town bike is quite far down the list in terms of criminal desirability so an old d-lock stuffed around the seat tube/pedal crank/rear wheel so there's no space for a bottle jack and minimal space for bolt cutters seems to be more than sufficient.

Annoying Twit
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Re: Cycle Parking Would you pay?

Postby Annoying Twit » 5 Oct 2017, 3:18pm

Stevek76 wrote:As for pay for cycle parking. No, not really much need for me, my about town bike is quite far down the list in terms of criminal desirability so an old d-lock stuffed around the seat tube/pedal crank/rear wheel so there's no space for a bottle jack and minimal space for bolt cutters seems to be more than sufficient.


I thought this about one of my previous bikes that was stolen. Even my seemingly undesirable around town bike is now locked properly with a quality lock.

BakfietsUK
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Re: Cycle Parking Would you pay?

Postby BakfietsUK » 5 Oct 2017, 8:09pm

Secure cycle parking sited so that errant drivers didn't bash into them, yes maybe I would pay. However in the spirit of evening up the way way out of balance facilities for car parking I would think proper cycle parking facilities should be funded by car parking revenue.

Paying for the stuff we are expected to use now would be immoral and punish people who are doing their bit for the environment. Beside the fact that it should be included in all new developments at the developers expense. Where this does not apply it should come out of council tax. Even a cycle parking levy on car tax would be morally justified. I really do not think it is the interests of anyone to charge for cycle parking. Given that a car can take up the same space as maybe 8 bikes, then say 10 parking spaces could fund 80 bike spaces. If a supermarket can be allowed to provide hundreds of car park spaces free of charge, then they should be made to provide free bike spaces too. Right now, they can get away with providing nothing at all for cyclists as the planning officers don't seem to be able to enforce the conditions of the original planning application. Where they charge to park a car, they should be made to hand over some of that for bike parking and if they have not put on the ground what they promised on the plans, they should be prosecuted.

Actually after writing all this, I see no reason at all to have to pay for bike parking, we scarcely get what we are entitled to anyway, so it's a big NO actually.

rmurphy195
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Re: Cycle Parking Would you pay?

Postby rmurphy195 » 7 Oct 2017, 5:08pm

mjr wrote:
rmurphy195 wrote:So the lady will end up paying an extra £500 per year to have her cup of tea - so her cuppa (assuming she only has one) currently costing £1 will now cost £3.

Hang on hang on hang on - if she's driving there, it's currently costing her much more than £1. This sort of selective cost-counting is a big problem with short-journey motoring - if people have to pay more often towards hogging space that 10 bikes could be parked in and it makes the costs of their transport choices more obvious, isn't that generally a good thing? Of course some people lose out but how can you avoid that completely and still reduce people cluttering up the park with cars?


Perhaps - if you select the sentence that you have selected, ignoring the preceding description of the lady in question - who is unlikley to cycle.

Are you suggesting that she (and other people with similar mobility problems) stays at home so that 10 cyclists could park in the car park instead (10 cyclists who have cycle racks at the side of the said cafe!).

I have to say that when I'm no longer able to walk/cycle and am dependent on motorised transport of some kind,I wouldn't be happy being subjected to such an attitude.
Brompton, Condor Heritage, creaky joints and thinning white (formerly grey) hair
""You know you're getting old when it's easier to ride a bike than to get on and off it" - quote from observant jogger !

BakfietsUK
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Re: Cycle Parking Would you pay?

Postby BakfietsUK » 7 Oct 2017, 9:45pm

The sheer mass of people who do have a transport choice, but choose to drive are surely mucking it up for those who have no choice but to drive. If one tenth of the people who could go by other means did go by other means, then those that absolutely have to drive would have to be better off. For some, as you say murphy195 it is not possible to go by any other means and in a way, those who doggedly stick with their cars despite all the potential benefits to themselves and others are limiting life choices for those in greater need. I think there would be masses of room for everyone if car use was lower amongst those who are able to choose, so any potential dispute between "special drivers" and cyclists would be irrelevant. take the denial merchants out of the equation and the field changes completely.

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mjr
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Re: Cycle Parking Would you pay?

Postby mjr » 7 Oct 2017, 9:54pm

rmurphy195 wrote:
mjr wrote:
rmurphy195 wrote:So the lady will end up paying an extra £500 per year to have her cup of tea - so her cuppa (assuming she only has one) currently costing £1 will now cost £3.

Hang on hang on hang on - if she's driving there, it's currently costing her much more than £1. This sort of selective cost-counting is a big problem with short-journey motoring - if people have to pay more often towards hogging space that 10 bikes could be parked in and it makes the costs of their transport choices more obvious, isn't that generally a good thing? Of course some people lose out but how can you avoid that completely and still reduce people cluttering up the park with cars?


Perhaps - if you select the sentence that you have selected, ignoring the preceding description of the lady in question - who is unlikley to cycle.

Are you suggesting that she (and other people with similar mobility problems) stays at home so that 10 cyclists could park in the car park instead (10 cyclists who have cycle racks at the side of the said cafe!).

I have to say that when I'm no longer able to walk/cycle and am dependent on motorised transport of some kind,I wouldn't be happy being subjected to such an attitude.

Merely motorised isn't the problem and I'm not necessarily suggesting she stay at home. She could use an actual mobility scooter, perhaps. Or add the parking charges to the hundreds she's already paying each year in insurance, servicing and fuel.

I'm sorry people don't like change but we should increasingly discourage short journeys by car, including discouraging people using them as 1800kg mobility scooter substitutes, because it's literally killing later generations. Maybe not for that lady, but e bikes and e trikes may also be good options for some like us in the future, keeping us more mobile for longer.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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PH
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Re: Cycle Parking Would you pay?

Postby PH » 7 Oct 2017, 11:23pm

rmurphy195 wrote:Here's an interesting aspect to the "subsidised parking" viewpoint.

Birmingham Council are introducing parking charges for people going to Cannon Hill park this week.

Cycled to there yesterday for my £1 cuppa at the garden tearoom, and an interesting conversation between 2 elderly gentlemen at the next table, about the very same subject. And elderly lady arrived, using a walking stick. They were obviously friends and met up at the tea room for a cuppa and a chin wag, as people do.

The lady in question it seems goes to the park almost every day "about 250 times per year" was what I overheard, by car 'cos she can't walk too far and finds it difficult getting on and off buses (and getting to the bus stop I imagine!). The same I would think applies to her friends and I'm sure many other people of theier age who use the tearoom as a meeting place

The car park charge is about £2 for up to 2 hours (I think), rising to £4 for longer than that.

So the lady will end up paying an extra £500 per year to have her cup of tea - so her cuppa (assuming she only has one) currently costing £1 will now cost £3.


It's hogwash. If she is not able to use public transport or walk very far she'll be eligible for a blue badge and parking at Cannon Hill Park will be free.
Meanwhile, I heard today from the leader of Birmingham Council, guest speaker at the Cycling UK get together, that in Birmingham there's 250,000 car journeys a day less than 1 mile, yes 250,000 less than 1 mile, I had to hear it twice to believe it as well. They can't all be old folk going to the park for a cup of tea.
All the people round the table are Birmingham council tax payers, as am I, so they are at present subsidising themselves.

Council Tax will be at most 10% of the councils income, you're not going to get much free parking out of it.

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Re: Cycle Parking Would you pay?

Postby Abradable Chin » 23 Oct 2017, 1:18am

GarethF wrote:I was recently fairly horrified to discover that the newly refitted cycle parking facilities at Durham railway station are now restricted to users who pay a ten quid annual subscription in order to have access via a key fob chip activated gate

I was baffled by something similar at Derby railway station. I tried to use the racks, but they'd been fenced in, and there was something with LEDs on it locking the gate. I presumed a railticket needed to be swiped? It's so easy to tailgate someone in, and often for safety reasons, there is no need to swipe out, so I don't reckon it's adding much security, it's just collecting revenue.

I went to tie the bike up against railings in the adjacent car park, and there were signs all over stating that bikes locked there would be removed. Is there any duty of care to me if the station management remove my bike? When does criminal damage occur cutting a lock? And can they keep my bike or sell it? Or must they hand it to the police? Can I be charged a fee to get it back? It doesn't mention any of these important details on the small signs.
Last edited by Abradable Chin on 23 Oct 2017, 11:01am, edited 1 time in total.

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Cunobelin
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Re: Cycle Parking Would you pay?

Postby Cunobelin » 23 Oct 2017, 6:45am

rmurphy195 wrote:Here's an interesting aspect to the "subsidised parking" viewpoint.

Birmingham Council are introducing parking charges for people going to Cannon Hill park this week.

Cycled to there yesterday for my £1 cuppa at the garden tearoom, and an interesting conversation between 2 elderly gentlemen at the next table, about the very same subject. And elderly lady arrived, using a walking stick. They were obviously friends and met up at the tea room for a cuppa and a chin wag, as people do.

The lady in question it seems goes to the park almost every day "about 250 times per year" was what I overheard, by car 'cos she can't walk too far and finds it difficult getting on and off buses (and getting to the bus stop I imagine!). The same I would think applies to her friends and I'm sure many other people of theier age who use the tearoom as a meeting place

The car park charge is about £2 for up to 2 hours (I think), rising to £4 for longer than that.

So the lady will end up paying an extra £500 per year to have her cup of tea - so her cuppa (assuming she only has one) currently costing £1 will now cost £3.

All the people round the table are Birmingham council tax payers, as am I, so they are at present subsidising themselves. As is my 95 year old father in law who lives about a mile from the park, but whose health is such that to go to the park means picking him up in the car to take him. And now we have to pay when we get there. Nice.



We have a wonderful system called the BRT, Bus Rapid Transit

To ensure its use they axed most of the local services around it, there is no longer even a bus route along the main road between Gosport and Fareham, with many areas cut off

SO for many people this modern fast, comfortable and efficient "system of the future" has meant less availability

My MiL is registered blind an in her 90s

The bus stop she used to use was 200 yards away It is now 3/4 mile and across two busy dual carriageways. We now drive her into town on a daily basis whereas we used to catch a bus with her and she would talk to her fellow passengers...... so in this case the reduced bus service has also had a social cost of removing one of her main contacts with other people