Bike stolen and retrieved - extraordinary day!

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
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Re: Bike stolen and retrieved - extraordinary day!

Post by PDQ Mobile »

thirdcrank wrote:
bovlomov wrote: ... This seems like a good loophole for anarchists and protesters to exploit. I can imagine all sorts of mischief that could be done, moving stuff about without actually 'stealing'.


Just because it's not stealing, that doesn't mean it's not another offence.............. in this case, taking a conveyance etc. or poaching in the case of the wild animals above. But it is right that just moving something about isn't theft.


Taking someone's bike from a train and pedalling off several miles then just leaving it is hardly "just moving it". IMV.
It is such stupid actions that detract from a quality of life.
By that I mean the constant having to lock stuff up (or to think about doing so) means there is less room for esoteric consideration of the world around in one's perception.!! Not to mention the humdrum business of simply functioning happily.
Philosophers hat off!

We are all poorer as a result. Even the thief!
And (s)he is a thief.
gbnz
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Re: Bike stolen and retrieved - extraordinary day!

Post by gbnz »

honesty wrote:I’m always absolutely paranoid about leaving my bike out of view on trains so I always cable lock it to the train, even in bike spaces, even when the sign specifically says not to...


Same here.

I've had Guards on the Cross Country trains being fairly pedantic, insisting the locks are removed. Though East Coast is easier, as the bikes locked up in a goods carriage. At worst I've stood alongside the bike for the journey (Though to be fair, it's easy enough to stand by the bike at the occaasional station stop)
toontra
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Re: Bike stolen and retrieved - extraordinary day!

Post by toontra »

gbnz wrote:
honesty wrote:I’m always absolutely paranoid about leaving my bike out of view on trains so I always cable lock it to the train, even in bike spaces, even when the sign specifically says not to...


Same here.

I've had Guards on the Cross Country trains being fairly pedantic, insisting the locks are removed. Though East Coast is easier, as the bikes locked up in a goods carriage. At worst I've stood alongside the bike for the journey (Though to be fair, it's easy enough to stand by the bike at the occaasional station stop)


East Coast isn't without problems. The guards' van isn't locked or attended so anyone could theoretically swipe your bike at any of the intervening stations and you probably wouldn't notice.

I am constantly reminded by the guard not to lock my bike, sometimes quite threateningly, so I have settled for securing it to the rack with a bungee cord, therefore not falling foul of the "no locking" rule but enough to slow any potential scum down.

BTW on my last trip from Aberdeen to London with East Coast there wasn't even a bike rack - my(quite expensive) bike was left rolling around on the floor with other various boxes, suitcases and general junk. Bikes on East Coast are a very low priority - and like many other companies they are making it increasingly difficult to jump through all their hoops (you can't even book a bike reservation on their website any longer) :x
Last edited by toontra on 29 Sep 2017, 12:09pm, edited 2 times in total.
thirdcrank
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Re: Bike stolen and retrieved - extraordinary day!

Post by thirdcrank »

I've tried to explain the law about theft and taking a conveyance. I'm not sure why I introduced the thread drift other than the fact that it's pouring down outside. Bovlomov introduced the suggestion that moving stuff about might be something protesters might exploit. And so on. So long as there's no intention to deprive permanently, it's not theft.

If somebody was standing at Land's End about to start an End-to-End and somebody else managed to get on the bike and complete the ride themselves and then propped the bike up in full view at John O' Groats and took a car that somebody had left the keys in and drove it back to the start, there would be two separate offences of taking a conveyance, one being the lesser offence involving the pedal cycle. As mentioned above, theft of the fuel is a possibility but not seen as appropriate. There may be something about this in the CPS guidance but it looks as though the rain is stopping.

I'm not suggesting that that would be either likely or acceptable if it happened. (The double End-to-End that is, not the rain stopping. :wink: )
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Re: Bike stolen and retrieved - extraordinary day!

Post by PDQ Mobile »

thirdcrank wrote:I've tried to explain the law about theft and taking a conveyance. I'm not sure why I introduced the thread drift other than the fact that it's pouring down outside. Bovlomov introduced the suggestion that moving stuff about might be something protesters might exploit. And so on. So long as there's no intention to deprive permanently, it's not theft.

I'm not suggesting that that would be either likely or acceptable if it happened. (The double End-to-End that is, not the rain stopping. :wink: )

Not the rain stopping! :D
My excuse is different! :shock:

However, maybe Pete's bike thief did intend to "deprive" him permanently of it but found it to be the wrong size!
Or had just nipped behind a hedge for a jimmy widdle when Pete turned up in the car.

The possibilities are just endless!
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meic
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Re: Bike stolen and retrieved - extraordinary day!

Post by meic »

This is probably a case of if he gets caught with it in his possession then nobody will be giving the benefit of the doubt, unless something really good can be offered.
Once they have totally abandoned it, that fact rather speaks for itself.
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Re: Bike stolen and retrieved - extraordinary day!

Post by mjr »

Grandad wrote:My upright fixed wheel trike was stolen and abandoned about 100 yards away :D

Well, if we're into tales like that, I've heard that local legend Bob Smith had his upright fixed wheel bike nicked from Lynn's bus station and returned just as the thief was pedalling away, there were police nearby and the thief then tried to stop to change direction, but he was unfamiliar with fixed wheels so bucked himself off the bike right in front of the police... and then proceeded to demand they arrested Bob for having a dangerous bike :roll: Of course, they decided to arrest someone and it wasn't Bob. :twisted:

toontra wrote:I am constantly reminded by the guard not to lock my bike, sometimes quite threateningly, so I have settled for securing it to the rack with a bungee cord, therefore not falling foul of the "no locking" rule but enough to slow any potential scum down.

Firstly, is there actually such a rule and secondly, what the hell's the reason for it?

I tend to lock the bike to racks and have not yet been challenged for it. If it's one of the badly-designed trains where bikes and large luggage has to block the non-platform doors (365s, 387s, 317s... basically, most stuff seen on the northern part of the Fen Line), then I strap the bike to nearby handrails (also to stop it falling) and watch it at any stop - if someone leans over to release a strap, I'm shouting and running at them and I think I'll reach them before they release the second one. If the train's busy and no nearby seats are free, I'll stand in the vestibule by the bike.
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Re: Bike stolen and retrieved - extraordinary day!

Post by toontra »

mjr wrote:Firstly, is there actually such a rule and secondly, what the hell's the reason for it?


I think you'll find most, if not all, train companies have it in their T&C's.

They will probably cite the need to move things in a hurry in the case of accidents or terrorist-type incidents, but the cynic in me thinks it's also just another ploy to discourage cyclists.
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meic
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Re: Bike stolen and retrieved - extraordinary day!

Post by meic »

I always imagined it was to avoid delays as people looked for keys that they had put in a different pocket to the one they usually do. Or to avoid having to cut bikes out of the train when the key or even the owner was permanently nowhere to be found.
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whoof
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Re: Bike stolen and retrieved - extraordinary day!

Post by whoof »

toontra wrote:
mjr wrote:Firstly, is there actually such a rule and secondly, what the hell's the reason for it?


I think you'll find most, if not all, train companies have it in their T&C's.

They will probably cite the need to move things in a hurry in the case of accidents or terrorist-type incidents, but the cynic in me thinks it's also just another ploy to discourage cyclists.


This is from GWR

storage is in Carriage A; secure your bike with the strap provided, but don’t lock it up


Arriva says this

Do not lock your cycle to any part of the train
I assume therefore you can put a lock around the wheel or to another bike if you are travelling with the owner. As I almost always travel with Mrs Whoof if I'm on a train with a bike this is what I plan to do from not on.
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Re: Bike stolen and retrieved - extraordinary day!

Post by Bob Bending »

Had a hand-made steel hardtail with Rohloff, Easton, Chris King, Thompson and Hope kit stolen from outside my workplace. Toe-rag turned up on a cheap (stolen) bike and used a big pair of cutters to get through the lock. We heard a bang as the cable went and watched through the window as he jumped on and rode off. Must have passed the cutters to a colleague in the street nearby then rode the bike away. Gone by the time I got outside. Posted pics on my website, and publicised the theft on the forums etc.

This all took place in a November – by February I'd claimed on the insurance and had a replacement made by the same builder and was just about to take delivery when I got an email from North London and pic of my rather sorry looking bike. A keen cyclist and his bike mechanic mate were outside a pub when this lad offered it to them for £50.00. Anyone who knows bikes will know the value of the Rohloff alone, so they thought "this is someone's pride and joy", bought the bike then the guy did a websearch for the decal name and a few features and up popped my website. Two hours after I got his email, I was reunited and giving him his fifty plus a hundred for getting it back.... The Hopes had been swapped out, the frame dinged and the rear disc bent but all else was still there, allbeit having gone through the wars. A week later the replacement was ready to ride... so now I have 'twins'. One set up for dry riding and faster tyres, the other set up for mud and wet with bigger knobblies. The rear wheel of either can be swapped out to convert it to a single speed too.
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Mick F
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Re: Bike stolen and retrieved - extraordinary day!

Post by Mick F »

mercalia wrote: ............... who stole a car to get home.......
No, he probably didn't steal it. He took it and drove it without permission, and probably without insurance as well.

Theft, as TC says, requires the taker to intentionally take the car to permanently deprive the rightful owner.
"Borrowing" it constitutes Joy Riding and not theft.
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mjr
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Re: Bike stolen and retrieved - extraordinary day!

Post by mjr »

toontra wrote:
mjr wrote:Firstly, is there actually such a rule and secondly, what the hell's the reason for it?


I think you'll find most, if not all, train companies have it in their T&C's.

They will probably cite the need to move things in a hurry in the case of accidents or terrorist-type incidents, but the cynic in me thinks it's also just another ploy to discourage cyclists.

I'm a cynic like you. I suspect they just don't like cyclists using their trains because we don't currently pay for the bikes. The accident theory doesn't work because it would be much better if a bike stays securely fastened to the rack in a crash, rather than becoming an airborne missile. Terrorism? Vanishingly rare and I don't let it change what I do.

It's not in http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/Condition ... 202016.pdf although it appears on the text of some train company websites, so I'm not sure if it's actually a condition.
meic wrote:I always imagined it was to avoid delays as people looked for keys that they had put in a different pocket to the one they usually do. Or to avoid having to cut bikes out of the train when the key or even the owner was permanently nowhere to be found.

So prioritising their income-protection (by reducing the risk of delay causing late fines) over crime prevention and cyclists' onward journeys - is that fair?
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Re: Bike stolen and retrieved - extraordinary day!

Post by thirdcrank »

Bob Bending wrote:Had a hand-made steel hardtail with Rohloff, Easton, Chris King, Thompson and Hope kit stolen from outside my workplace. ...


It will be no consolation to know that this was theft. (And I'll keep it short because the sun is still shining. :D )
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Re: Bike stolen and retrieved - extraordinary day!

Post by PDQ Mobile »

thirdcrank wrote:It will be no consolation to know that this was theft. (And I'll keep it short because the sun is still shining. :D )

Because the cable was cut?

(Did you see the forecast?) :wink:
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