Polite Endangerment At Crossroads

[Pyranha]

I was taught to always do that, though the Highway Code approves both methods though there is a warning to watch out for cyclists

No, those two images are of different situations - it shows passing behind each other for a crossroads and passing in front where the side roads are offset (only a little in the image) from each other.

[Ellieb]

I was taught to always do that, though the Highway Code approves both methods though there is a warning to watch out for cyclists

No, those two images are of different situations - it shows passing behind each other for a crossroads and passing in front where the side roads are offset (only a little in the image) from each other.

The text attached to that diagram makes it clear that it doesn't apply only to staggered junctions (Rule 181)

[PH]

I was taught to always do that, though the Highway Code approves both methods though there is a warning to watch out for cyclists

No, those two images are of different situations - it shows passing behind each other for a crossroads and passing in front where the side roads are offset (only a little in the image) from each other.

The text attached to that diagram makes it clear that it doesn't apply only to staggered junctions (Rule 181)

Indeed, in case anyone is in any doubt, here is the full text

181
When turning right at crossroads where an oncoming vehicle is also turning right, there is a choice of two methods

turn right side to right side; keep the other vehicle on your right and turn behind it. This is generally the safer method as you have a clear view of any approaching traffic when completing your turn
left side to left side, turning in front of each other. This can block your view of oncoming vehicles, so take extra care. Cyclists and motorcyclists in particular may be hidden from your view. Road layout, markings or how the other vehicle is positioned can determine which course should be taken.

[mjr]

We often encounter this problem while doing 'Bikeability 'training in schools. Often drivers will stop to let a group of children across, but we have to explain to them that if cycling on their own, a motorist will rarely give way when they are turning across the oncoming traffic.

I think motorists often give way in that situation, but maybe that's just the lovely fens-and-coast drivers who see/know enough cyclists... and you can't rely on it, so it's important that trainees learn how to cope with everyone behaving by-the-book as well as the potential for good intentions to create dangerous situations such as that in the OP (which I think is a right-turning vehicle in lane 2 obstructing one's view of through traffic in lane 1) or the more common problem of one motorist waving/flashing another into a probable collision with cyclists if no avoiding action is taken.

[Bmblbzzz]

I agree with the general point that drivers often cause unwitting problems by being "considerate" but I'm unsure of the specific problem in the OP's situation. Are we talking turning from major into minor or turning out of a side road, for a start? If out of a side road, you really have to turn in front of each other. If into a side road, it's also fairly standard practice; varies from situation to situation, sometimes road markings indicate one or the other.

[Flinders]

No, those two images are of different situations - it shows passing behind each other for a crossroads and passing in front where the side roads are offset (only a little in the image) from each other.

The text attached to that diagram makes it clear that it doesn't apply only to staggered junctions (Rule 181)

Indeed, in case anyone is in any doubt, here is the full text

181
When turning right at crossroads where an oncoming vehicle is also turning right, there is a choice of two methods

turn right side to right side; keep the other vehicle on your right and turn behind it. This is generally the safer method as you have a clear view of any approaching traffic when completing your turn
left side to left side, turning in front of each other. This can block your view of oncoming vehicles, so take extra care. Cyclists and motorcyclists in particular may be hidden from your view. Road layout, markings or how the other vehicle is positioned can determine which course should be taken.

All very nice, but at a lot of junctions if all the traffic did that, busy traffic would come to a standstill. If traffic crosses in front rather than behind, provided the visibility is good and there is no 'straight on' traffic, many more vehicles can cross in the same time if they cross in front. Even on a bike, I'd rather cross in front.

[Cyril Haearn]

There is a place near me where PoFs have priority crossing the road but PoBs do not

I always wait when cycling, most motons think they are being friendly by stopping, even waving me across, although there is a second lane, one cannae see what is coming

I do enjoy explaining the law to the stupid idiots, if their windows are closed I have to shout Maybe I should have been a policeperson?

[fastpedaller]

I don't like turning right at busy crossroads because inevitably someone coming the other way turning right will stop in front of me, thinking that they are being nice giving way, when actually they are setting me up to be splatted by the car behind them who will likely go around the waiting car without seeing me. To prevent this, I refuse to turn in front of anyone, but that leads to us both sitting there until the lights change, and sometimes even angry beeping.

I would just silently put up with it, but I decided to vent here because today it happened again when the approaching car had a driving school sign on it and only one occupant, who was thus presumably a driving instructor. She was waving for me to go, but there was a car behind her so I waited. Of course that car went around her and would have come into conflict with me had I not waited.

What hope do drivers today have if they aren't even being initially instructed how to turn safely at a junction?

That's astonishing (that a driving instructor would do that). My late Mother failed her first driving test c 1967 due to 'giving a signal to another road user' when she stopped at a zebra crossing and indicated (by moving her hand) to the pedestrians to cross. Ironically if she'd just stopped and done nothing else she may have passed, but I understand the reasoning. Another issue is that motorists can wave their hands indicating for us (or indeed other motorists) to go across, but it may not be visible due to reflections on their windscreen - if the 'receiver' of the signal is then hesitant the signaller gets impatient and moves anyway! Carnage may ensue. In such a situation (if I'm not 100% sure they've 'granted' my movement) I just stay put until they move or the signal is a definite one - but I agree with the Op and others, such polite gestures can be more dangerous than nothing.

[mattsccm]

I am an awkward git. I refuse to allow other drivers to give up their right of way (unless its life endangering). They usually want to just cut a corner. Flashing of lights gets no response from me either. I am very much a "stick to the book" road user. You can't be wrong that way.
I see the OPs point. Many drivers will try to squeeze through to the left of a right turning vehicle. As indicators seem to be extinct nowadays a stopped car is likely to be assumed to be turning if by a junction. Idiots.

[Bonefishblues]

I am an awkward git. I refuse to allow other drivers to give up their right of way (unless its life endangering). They usually want to just cut a corner. Flashing of lights gets no response from me either. I am very much a "stick to the book" road user. You can't be wrong that way.
I see the OPs point. Many drivers will try to squeeze through to the left of a right turning vehicle. As indicators seem to be extinct nowadays a stopped car is likely to be assumed to be turning if by a junction. Idiots.

That's a shame. If it's safe to take advantage of another driver's courtesy, then I typically do.

[Cyril Haearn]

I am an awkward git. I refuse to allow other drivers to give up their right of way (unless its life endangering). They usually want to just cut a corner. Flashing of lights gets no response from me either. I am very much a "stick to the book" road user. You can't be wrong that way.
I see the OPs point. Many drivers will try to squeeze through to the left of a right turning vehicle. As indicators seem to be extinct nowadays a stopped car is likely to be assumed to be turning if by a junction. Idiots.

That's a shame. If it's safe to take advantage of another driver's courtesy, then I typically do.

One cannot know that it is safe, best to stick to the law even if it costs a few seconds. Or minutes
Trouble is, legal is not normal

[Cyril Haearn]

I don't like turning right at busy crossroads because inevitably someone coming the other way turning right will stop in front of me, thinking that they are being nice giving way, when actually they are setting me up to be splatted by the car behind them who will likely go around the waiting car without seeing me. To prevent this, I refuse to turn in front of anyone, but that leads to us both sitting there until the lights change, and sometimes even angry beeping.

I would just silently put up with it, but I decided to vent here because today it happened again when the approaching car had a driving school sign on it and only one occupant, who was thus presumably a driving instructor. She was waving for me to go, but there was a car behind her so I waited. Of course that car went around her and would have come into conflict with me had I not waited.

What hope do drivers today have if they aren't even being initially instructed how to turn safely at a junction?

That's astonishing (that a driving instructor would do that).

Not astonishing at all sadly if one observes and reads about driving instructors

[Bonefishblues]

I am an awkward git. I refuse to allow other drivers to give up their right of way (unless its life endangering). They usually want to just cut a corner. Flashing of lights gets no response from me either. I am very much a "stick to the book" road user. You can't be wrong that way.
I see the OPs point. Many drivers will try to squeeze through to the left of a right turning vehicle. As indicators seem to be extinct nowadays a stopped car is likely to be assumed to be turning if by a junction. Idiots.

That's a shame. If it's safe to take advantage of another driver's courtesy, then I typically do.

One cannot know that it is safe, best to stick to the law even if it costs a few seconds. Or minutes
Trouble is, legal is not normal

Of course one can. It is also entirely legally compliant. It also has the benefit that traffic flows more smoothly and frustration is reduced.

[Cyril Haearn]

That's a shame. If it's safe to take advantage of another driver's courtesy, then I typically do.

One cannot know that it is safe, best to stick to the law even if it costs a few seconds. Or minutes
Trouble is, legal is not normal

Of course one can. It is also entirely legally compliant. It also has the benefit that traffic flows more smoothly and frustration is reduced.

In some situations maybe
But where disobeying the law is the norm, it can be "dangerous" to behave correctly

[Bonefishblues]

One cannot know that it is safe, best to stick to the law even if it costs a few seconds. Or minutes
Trouble is, legal is not normal

Of course one can. It is also entirely legally compliant. It also has the benefit that traffic flows more smoothly and frustration is reduced.

In some situations maybe
But where disobeying the law is the norm, it can be "dangerous" to behave correctly

You will note my earlier qualification 'if it's safe'.