Driver strikes again!

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thirdcrank
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Re: Driver strikes again!

Postby thirdcrank » 3 Nov 2017, 10:57am

The bottom line with speed limits based on vehicle type is that afaik, an automatic speed camera cannot tell the difference between a moped and a 40 tonne truck, so it needs that rare species, the traffic police officer or at least a manually-operated speed camera with an operator who knows the relevant speed limits.

No doubt there are other locations, but the only road where I've seen the authorities making a visible declaration of intent is on the A75 which is largely single carriageway ie lower limits and carries a lot of HGV's.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.90447 ... 312!8i6656

I have seen at least one bigger sign on the A75 spelling that out for anybody who doesn't understand a sign like the one in that streetview.

Afaik, the police don't enforce this on similar roads like the A17 in Lincolnshire and Norfolk, but that's based on observation of the number of HGV's doing 60mph, the national limit for single carriageway roads. I suspect that the issue may be that lorries sticking to 40mph might provoke a lot of daft overtaking.

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mjr
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Re: Driver strikes again!

Postby mjr » 3 Nov 2017, 11:55am

thirdcrank wrote:The bottom line with speed limits based on vehicle type is that afaik, an automatic speed camera cannot tell the difference between a moped and a 40 tonne truck,

No longer true with ANPR speed cameras which can look up the type from an online database.

thirdcrank wrote:Afaik, the police don't enforce this on similar roads like the A17 in Lincolnshire and Norfolk, but that's based on observation of the number of HGV's doing 60mph, the national limit for single carriageway roads. I suspect that the issue may be that lorries sticking to 40mph might provoke a lot of daft overtaking.

Norfolk's section has average speed cameras, which have to read number plates anyway and it's become much easier to cross the A17 since they were fitted - I think it's because natural gaps in the traffic are no longer being closed by speeders, plus motoring speeds are more consistent and thereby easier to judge, rather than trying to figure out of an oncoming vehicle is doing 60 or 80+. I wouldn't be surprised if Lincolnshire still does nothing, though - the last A17 crossing I did there wasn't easy but I don't do them as often.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Flinders
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Re: Driver strikes again!

Postby Flinders » 3 Nov 2017, 8:08pm

I checked out the firm of the driver I mentioned in my post. Not a foreign firm as far as I could see. But could of course still be a foreign driver. Though I don't care for making assumptions on that either way.
Sadly I don't have dashcam. And to get the third lane part of it, it would have had to have been 360 as it was behind us at the time.

thirdcrank
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Re: Driver strikes again!

Postby thirdcrank » 3 Nov 2017, 8:29pm

I'd be interested to know if ANPR speed cameras are actually set up to enforce type-based speed limits. Although we used to be regular visitors to North Norfolk, using the A17 to travel there and back, I've only driven down twice since the new cameras were installed and in general, HGV's seemed to be keeping up with the general traffic ie 60mph on a single carriageway. I can appreciate that average-speed cameras foil drivers with the local knowledge about camera locations and those with the various warning systems.

The only cameras of that type I've seen elsewhere are near Market Weighton in East Yorkshire. Fewer HGV's than on the A17 but they do seem to do 60mph, although it's not so flat as most of the A17 so that slows them a bit.

SA_SA_SA
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Re: Driver strikes again!

Postby SA_SA_SA » 3 Nov 2017, 8:36pm

thirdcrank wrote:I'd be interested to know if ANPR speed cameras are actually set up to enforce type-based speed limits...

I have seen a newspaper motoring page* warn drivers of van-based cars to check that the manufacturer has bothered to have it registered as a car to avoid number plate reading speed cameras from booking them for doing 60 in a 60 limit because a van should be doing 50....
Which would imply that some such cameras do.

*Honest John I think
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Mick F
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Re: Driver strikes again!

Postby Mick F » 3 Nov 2017, 8:45pm

Citroen Berlingo.
A strange vehicle in that it was originally a van and then they produced a car version.

A "car derived van" has the same speed limits as a car, but a van is limited as a van. Transit for instance is a van, but conversely an Escort van is limited as a car. Citroen Berlingo is a van and therefore limited the same as a Transit, even though there is a Berlingo car version.

I very much doubt the police are interested in the slightest.
Mick F. Cornwall

Grandad
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Re: Driver strikes again!

Postby Grandad » 3 Nov 2017, 10:21pm

And to get the third lane part of it, it would have had to have been 360 as it was behind us at the time.


My dashcam has 2 cameras, one faces forward, the other backward. Split screen shows both.

thirdcrank
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Re: Driver strikes again!

Postby thirdcrank » 2 Dec 2017, 8:36pm

Mick F wrote:Citroen Berlingo.
A strange vehicle in that it was originally a van and then they produced a car version.

A "car derived van" has the same speed limits as a car, but a van is limited as a van. Transit for instance is a van, but conversely an Escort van is limited as a car. Citroen Berlingo is a van and therefore limited the same as a Transit, even though there is a Berlingo car version.

I very much doubt the police are interested in the slightest.


I don't know what made me remember this. I was going to post at the time but must have been distracted.

My interpretaion is that a Berlingo is a "Dual purpose vehicle" ie same speed limit as a car.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... e-vehicles

BTW, nothing particularly unusual about dual purpose vehicles. My dear old dad's first car (1965) was a Mini Traveller ie a Mini van with seats and rear side windows. He was mortified whenever it was referred to as a van. There was an even more upmarket version with wooden bits bolted on to give it more of an estate car / shooting brake appearance.
==============================================================
PS it seems there may have been some doubt over the status of some small vans in van format because they have been said to be not "car-derived" and therefore not subject to the higher limits for cars, even though car versions have subsequently been made. That's pretty much the opposite of what caused me to post here.

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Cunobelin
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Re: Driver strikes again!

Postby Cunobelin » 2 Dec 2017, 10:48pm

If you contact the Company, do not mention the video

The reasoning is simple......

Most drivers will lie about what happened and paint themselves as the victim. When you get the reply explaining this, that is when you send the video

Then the video shows that not only are they driving badly but also lying about it. Most managers will be unhappy about being put in that position.

I have had two drivers dismissed from companies, with because they were dishonest about the incident rather than the driving, but at least action has been taken


Another trick is to send a couple of stills from the video and let them imagine what else is on the footage and just how damning the evidence is

I had one with a guy leaning out of the back door of a van trying to grab the flag on the trike. Sent an image of the guy after he had passed but still leaning out... circumstantial to say the least, but he confessed all
Last edited by Cunobelin on 2 Dec 2017, 10:53pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RickH
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Re: Driver strikes again!

Postby RickH » 2 Dec 2017, 10:48pm

Mick F wrote:I very much doubt the police are interested in the slightest.

No person has to "be interested", especially with the increase in average speed cameras (Side note: there's a new set in action near us - A675 heading through Belmont & Abbey Village, North of Bolton - we drove that way today).

They will be using ANPR so they can log the timing of individual vehicles though the sets of cameras. It is trivially simple to send a computerised request to the DVLA system to find what type of vehicle the system has it down as & automatically send a ticket out accordingly if the vehicle's speed limit on that road is less than the signed speed limit. No direct human involvement is needed, at least initially.

It was an issue raised in the Camping & Caravan Club magazine recently concerning campervans as, without being specifically told, you can't always tell if you are driving a "van" or a "car" - the original vehicle may have been a van - some converters will get the type changed to car, some may not. The C&CC advice was to always check on the type when buying to be sure.

thirdcrank
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Re: Driver strikes again!

Postby thirdcrank » 3 Dec 2017, 8:08am

Honest John has been mentioned and in something I read the discussion was about van-derived cars which AFAIK isn't an official vehicle type. It confuses things because it's similar to car-derived van which is an official type. The vehicle type will be in the log book, properly described as the Vehicle Registration Certificate V5C and that's what's on the DVLA computer. At first registration, it's the manufacturer's description which is supplied to the DVLA by the vendor. If later changes are made, like fitting a van with rear side-windows, that has to be notified with an application to change the classification if applicable. I can see that if an unregistered van were to have modifications by the vendor, they might register it as a van when it met the criteria for a car or dual purpose vehicle. All easily verified by checking the V5C.

"Older readers" will remember that there was a time pre-VAT when purchase tax savings made vans a lot cheaper than a similar car so adding rear side-windows was quite a common thing and attracted retrospective purchase tax if done correctly, or a prosecution if it wasn't and it was spotted.

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Cunobelin
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Re: Driver strikes again!

Postby Cunobelin » 3 Dec 2017, 10:03am

thirdcrank wrote:Honest John has been mentioned and in something I read the discussion was about van-derived cars which AFAIK isn't an official vehicle type. It confuses things because it's similar to car-derived van which is an official type. The vehicle type will be in the log book, properly described as the Vehicle Registration Certificate V5C and that's what's on the DVLA computer. At first registration, it's the manufacturer's description which is supplied to the DVLA by the vendor. If later changes are made, like fitting a van with rear side-windows, that has to be notified with an application to change the classification if applicable. I can see that if an unregistered van were to have modifications by the vendor, they might register it as a van when it met the criteria for a car or dual purpose vehicle. All easily verified by checking the V5C.

"Older readers" will remember that there was a time pre-VAT when purchase tax savings made vans a lot cheaper than a similar car so adding rear side-windows was quite a common thing and attracted retrospective purchase tax if done correctly, or a prosecution if it wasn't and it was spotted.



The difference is the bodywork and fittings

In the simplest form.....


Seats behind the driver and windows - Car
No seats behind driver and no windows - Van