Motorist needs advice on incident inolving cyclist

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
thirdcrank
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Re: Motorist needs advice on incident inolving cyclist

Postby thirdcrank » 25 Nov 2017, 8:06am

Re School Crossing Patrols, around here, they are taught to avoid problems of this type by keeping the head of the lollipop pointing downwards until they are preparing to stop the traffic, when they hold it right-way-up and then pick a safe ( :roll: ) opportunity to step out into the carriageway. The idea is that drivers are warned by the lollipop being raised but I'm not so sure.

It's been my general impression over many years that some male SXP's, especially older ones, are power mad.

pwa
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Re: Motorist needs advice on incident inolving cyclist

Postby pwa » 25 Nov 2017, 8:50am

thirdcrank wrote:Re School Crossing Patrols, around here, they are taught to avoid problems of this type by keeping the head of the lollipop pointing downwards until they are preparing to stop the traffic, when they hold it right-way-up and then pick a safe ( :roll: ) opportunity to step out into the carriageway. The idea is that drivers are warned by the lollipop being raised but I'm not so sure.

It's been my general impression over many years that some male SXP's, especially older ones, are power mad.


There is an elderly gentleman not far from here who does that job, and he is an entertainingly forceful character. But he never jumps out into the road. He eyeballs the oncoming drivers and makes his intentions clear through his body language and wielding of the lollipop. You would have to be really lost in a world of your own not to recognise the symptoms when he wants to step out.

Postboxer
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Re: Motorist needs advice on incident inolving cyclist

Postby Postboxer » 25 Nov 2017, 9:16am

Surely they are meant to stop the traffic with the lollipop, before stepping into the road? If they've stepped out forcing a vehicle to perform an emergency stop, it should be reported as they are putting themselves in danger.

brynpoeth
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Re: Motorist needs advice on incident inolving cyclist

Postby brynpoeth » 25 Nov 2017, 9:54am

pwa wrote:
thirdcrank wrote:Re School Crossing Patrols, around here, they are taught to avoid problems of this type by keeping the head of the lollipop pointing downwards until they are preparing to stop the traffic, when they hold it right-way-up and then pick a safe ( :roll: ) opportunity to step out into the carriageway. The idea is that drivers are warned by the lollipop being raised but I'm not so sure.

It's been my general impression over many years that some male SXP's, especially older ones, are power mad.


There is an elderly gentleman not far from here who does that job, and he is an entertainingly forceful character. But he never jumps out into the road. He eyeballs the oncoming drivers and makes his intentions clear through his body language and wielding of the lollipop. You would have to be really lost in a world of your own not to recognise the symptoms when he wants to step out.


Could almost interest me as a part-time job in retirement, but I remember reading that there is a lot of trouble with impatient motons

Best type of person for this job might be the bodybuilder type who provides nightclub security

What is the legal situation, does an SXP have some of the powers of a constable?
Cycling? Of course, but it's far better on a Gillott

Vorpal
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Re: Motorist needs advice on incident inolving cyclist

Postby Vorpal » 25 Nov 2017, 10:04am

brynpoeth wrote:What is the legal situation, does an SXP have some of the powers of a constable?

Yes. But they only have the power to stop traffic.

TBH, I think they would be better served by covering them under the Community Safety Acceditaiton Scheme. Then they could be assigned other powers by the Chief Constable, such as the power to require the name and address of an offender.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

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gaz
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Re: Motorist needs advice on incident inolving cyclist

Postby gaz » 25 Nov 2017, 10:09am

Elli123 wrote:My car has tiny scratch on back which I honestly dont care about. I am just worried about if I should have given him my details or reported incident to police, he didn't ask for any insurance nor I his, he said he was not injured and rode off ...

There is a legal requirement on the driver of a motor vehicle to stop and exchange details following an incident which results in damage to property or injury to persons. If they do not they must report the collision to the police within 24 hours.

Road Traffic Act 1988, s.170

In the case described neither party appears to have considered their property to have been damaged, nor themselves to have been injured. No need to exchange details, no legal obligation on the OP to report the incident to the police.

There is no legal obligation on a cyclist to report such a collision.
It's got nothing to do with vorsprung durch technic you know ...

9494arnold
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Re: Motorist needs advice on incident inolving cyclist

Postby 9494arnold » 25 Nov 2017, 10:34am

Injury road traffic collision involving a motor vehicle : Duty to report to Police.
Non injury, Police will advise to sort it out yourself or through insurance company. And they won't attend the scene.
Have to say I think this was 99 to 100% the Cyclists fault. Any Cyclist worth his salt would have been aware of the Crossing Warden and seen the movement at same time as you and reacted accordingly.
Like Gaz said.
The black line on the "Lollipop" was initially there for Crossing Warden to write the registration of errant cars on in chalk.
Think it's more of a design cue these days.

elPedro666
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Re: Motorist needs advice on incident inolving cyclist

Postby elPedro666 » 25 Nov 2017, 11:00am

I'd hazard a guess that the cyclist was checking over their shoulder to move out to the centre of the lane when the crossing lady stepped out. Sounds like you were just caught between two people who were not paying quite enough attention, I really can't see what else you could have done.

As mentioned already, the cyclist was probably very embarrassed and worried about the damage to your car, they really should've offered to help with that, or at least make absolutely certain that you were okay.

Wholeheartedly agree with the tea & biscuit suggestion!

I'm a trendy consumer. Just look at my stupid phone.

thirdcrank
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Re: Motorist needs advice on incident inolving cyclist

Postby thirdcrank » 25 Nov 2017, 4:56pm

... What is the legal situation, does an SXP have some of the powers of a constable?

It's a pretty good case study on how our legal system cannot cope with something so simple as getting children across the street.

I don't know the original SXP legislation: these people certainly existed in the immediate post-war years because I vividly remember a very kind lady with an Irish accent who used to see me across the road when I started school in 1949. She called me Michelangelo and often tied up my shoelaces when I was on my way home.

Anyway, the oldest legislation I can find online is the School Crossing Patrols Act, 1953.

Power of school crossing patrols to stop traffic.

2.-(1) When between the hours of eight in the morning and half-past five in the afternoon a vehicle is approaching a place in a road where children on their way to or from school are crossing or seeking to cross the road, a school crossing patrol shall (subject to subsection (3) of this section) have power, by exhibiting a prescribed sign, to require the person driving or propelling the vehicle to stop it.

(2) When a person has been required under the preceding subsection to stop a vehicle -

(a) he shall cause the vehicle to stop before reaching the place where the children are crossing or seeking to cross and so as not to stop or impede their crossing; and

(b) the vehicle shall not be put in motion again so as to reach the place in question so long as the sign continues to be exhibited.

Any person who fails to comply with paragraph (a) of this subsection, or who causes a vehicle to be put in motion in contravention of paragraph (b) thereof, shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding twenty pounds.

http://www.educationengland.org.uk/docu ... s-act.html

Try and spot the loopholes in the power. There are others in the detail of the uniform, and even more in the designd of the lollipop (not a legal expression, btw.)

The current regs are under s 28 Road Traffic Regulation Act, 1984 (as amended)

28 Stopping of vehicles at school crossings.

(1) When a vehicle is approaching a place in a road where a person is crossing or seeking to cross the road, a school crossing patrol wearing a uniform approved by the national authority shall have power, by exhibiting a prescribed sign, to require the person driving or propelling the vehicle to stop it.

(2)When a person has been required under subsection (1) above to stop a vehicle—

(a)he shall cause the vehicle to stop before reaching the place where the person is crossing or seeking to cross and so as not to stop or impede his crossing, and

(b) the vehicle shall not be put in motion again so as to reach the place in question so long as the sign continues to be exhibited.

(3) A person who fails to comply with paragraph (a) of subsection (2) above, or who causes a vehicle to be put in motion in contravention of paragraph (b) of that subsection, shall be guilty of an offence.

(4) In this section—

(a) “prescribed sign” means a sign of a size, colour and type prescribed by regulations made by the national authority or, if authorisation is given by the national authority for the use of signs of a description not so prescribed, a sign of that description;

(b) “school crossing patrol” means a person authorised to patrol in accordance with arrangements under section 26 of this Act; and regulations under paragraph (a) above may provide for the attachment of reflectors to signs or for the illumination of signs.

(5) For the purposes of this section—

(a) where it is proved that a sign was exhibited by a school crossing patrol, it shall be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to be of a size, colour and type prescribed, or of a description authorised, under subsection (4)(b) above, and, if it was exhibited in circumstances in which it was required by the regulations to be illuminated, to have been illuminated in the prescribed manner; and

(b) where it is proved that a school crossing patrol was wearing a uniform, the uniform shall be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to be a uniform approved by the national authority

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/section/28

The lollipop is currently prescribed in detail by The School Crossing Patrol Sign (England and Wales) Regulations 2006. There are six regulations and an appendix, which I won't reproduce for reasons of space, but are required reading for anybody involved with enforcing this (or looking for defences.)
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2006 ... tents/made

Remember: so-called legislative draughtsmen are employed at great expense to churn out this stuff.

Lucyhan
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Re: Motorist needs advice on incident inolving cyclist

Postby Lucyhan » 26 Nov 2017, 12:01pm

What has struck me from this post is why was a cyclist speeding along outside a school?
I am sure all cyclists have had near misses where a pedestrian has stepped into the road as they have not heard the bicycle approaching. There usually is a lot of parked cars outside schools, along with busy parents who are running late, need to get to work etc. Silent cyclists are not easy to spot. There are speed limits and speed bumps outside schools for a reason, not just to slow down cars.
Therefore I would suggest that the cyclist was not cycling safely and would have some explaining to do.

brynpoeth
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Re: Motorist needs advice on incident inolving cyclist

Postby brynpoeth » 26 Nov 2017, 2:23pm

thirdcrank wrote:Re School Crossing Patrols, around here, they are taught to avoid problems of this type by keeping the head of the lollipop pointing downwards until they are preparing to stop the traffic, when they hold it right-way-up and then pick a safe ( :roll: ) opportunity to step out into the carriageway. The idea is that drivers are warned by the lollipop being raised but I'm not so sure.

It's been my general impression over many years that some male SXP's, especially older ones, are power mad.


Maybe they tried to join the cops but were rejected (not fit enough, too short, not smart enough?) and are taking revenge

I find one actually gets more relaxed as one gets older
Cycling? Of course, but it's far better on a Gillott

thirdcrank
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Re: Motorist needs advice on incident inolving cyclist

Postby thirdcrank » 26 Nov 2017, 3:50pm

brynpoeth wrote: ... Maybe they tried to join the cops but were rejected (not fit enough, too short, not smart enough?) and are taking revenge

I find one actually gets more relaxed as one gets older


I posted in response to a query from you about the powers of these patrols; IIRC you said you were considering it as a job for your retirement, so if the (peaked) cap fits...

The hours are not attractive to everybody, being part-time but involving at least two and sometimes four sessions on every weekday in term-time. At a time of austerity/ cuts to local authority funding, I get the impression that there's not much emphasis on filling vacancies.

Tangled Metal
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Re: Motorist needs advice on incident inolving cyclist

Postby Tangled Metal » 26 Nov 2017, 10:51pm

If the lollipop crossing person causes an emergency stop then they're incompetent and potentially dangerous I'd have thought. If I was the op I'd be tempted to park up and have a chat to the person to explain that despite taking all reasonable care and attention when driving the action of this crossing person caused an emergency stop. Explain that the crossing patrol person has made a mistake and that he / she needs to assess the situation more clearly and ensure that the drivers have seen them and can stop without requiring hard braking.

The second point is if you go into the back of a vehicle because you can't react and brake fast enough then you're too close. A mate did that and woke up in A&E once. Looked like he'd gone ten rounds with Tyson in his prime almost 6 weeks later. His expensive mtb was written off too. He was totally annoyed with himself because he knew he messed up slipstreaming in behind the transit van at speed.

thirdcrank
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Re: Motorist needs advice on incident inolving cyclist

Postby thirdcrank » 27 Nov 2017, 7:34am

It's a bit like traffic lights: a lot of drivers speed up as they approach to try and beat the lights.

mattsccm
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Re: Motorist needs advice on incident inolving cyclist

Postby mattsccm » 27 Nov 2017, 8:04pm

Speaking from a teachers point of view, please mention your concerns about the lollipop lady to the school. As for the incident. Cyclist was an idiot for riding too close.