Driver telling blatant lies to try and get ban shortened

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rmurphy195
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Joined: 20 May 2011, 11:23am
Location: South Birmingham

Re: Driver telling blatant lies to try and get ban shortened

Postby rmurphy195 » 28 Nov 2017, 3:39pm

Some years ago while on Jury service, I read reports of the case in the local press in the evenings (the case lasted several weeks!).

What was printed wasn't quite was was said in court, but an interpretation of what was said, which was probably then edited. So the picture gained in court in many respects was quite different to the picture of the case presented in the newspaper. While I cannot remember the details, I certainly remember thinking, when reading some "quotes" of things said defendants and witnesses - "No, he didn't say that at all"!

A great learning curve for me on why jurors should focus on what is said in court, not on media reports, and of course why we were incarcerated for a couple of days with dire warnings about not reading newspapers or watching news reports, during a critical part of the trial!

Thus, IMO, there's little point in arguing the toss about what the defendant did or did not claim based on press reports, you can only do this by attending court and seeing/hearing for yourself what was said or reading a proper transcript.
Scott Purgatory MTB, Brompton, Condor Heritage, creaky joints and grey hair
""You know you're getting old when it's easier to ride a bike than to get on and off it" - quote from observant jogger !

thirdcrank
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Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Driver telling blatant lies to try and get ban shortened

Postby thirdcrank » 28 Nov 2017, 3:57pm

Unfortunately, the link in the OP seems to have crashed at the moment (all the attention from members of this forum?)

Anyway, I've found another and I was encouraged by this from the judge.

The judge told Hill: "While life is hard for you being disqualified, I have to bear in mind that life is intolerably hard for Beth Tyson and Kate Hunter.

"The disqualification is part of the punishment - it is a significant part of the sentence, it is meant to hurt."

http://www.lincolnshirelive.co.uk/news/ ... ves-838711

With a bit more of that approach we might see fewer findings of special reasons etc., based on the flimsiest of grounds.

reohn2
Posts: 28317
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Driver telling blatant lies to try and get ban shortened

Postby reohn2 » 28 Nov 2017, 4:23pm

thirdcrank wrote:Unfortunately, the link in the OP seems to have crashed at the moment (all the attention from members of this forum?)

Anyway, I've found another and I was encouraged by this from the judge.

The judge told Hill: "While life is hard for you being disqualified, I have to bear in mind that life is intolerably hard for Beth Tyson and Kate Hunter.

"The disqualification is part of the punishment - it is a significant part of the sentence, it is meant to hurt."

http://www.lincolnshirelive.co.uk/news/ ... ves-838711

With a bit more of that approach we might see fewer findings of special reasons etc., based on the flimsiest of grounds.


+1
Whilst I think rehabilitation should be part of any sentence the approach shown by this judge in the circumstances of this case is the correct one IMHO.
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I cycle therefore I am.

Barks
Posts: 99
Joined: 14 Oct 2016, 5:27pm

Re: Driver telling blatant lies to try and get ban shortened

Postby Barks » 28 Nov 2017, 5:50pm

I travel all over the country by train, bus and bike - this chap does not need to drive at all and while it might seem an odd thing to say, he doesn’t need to drive to sell cars. I’ve bought many cars over the years and the ‘salesman’ has never needed to even go out of the showroom. If i needed a demo drive, I would be driving perhaps with the salesman next to me but he’s not driving. The punishment is too lax on all levels - he should have been in prison for longer and never be allowed to drive again.

Bonefishblues
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Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Driver telling blatant lies to try and get ban shortened

Postby Bonefishblues » 28 Nov 2017, 6:22pm

pete75 wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:My broader point is that on occasion it seems that when a press report suits our pov we accept it as verbatim, and complete, and are willing to draw conclusions from it.

When the converse applies, the press is unreliable, biased, and much else.


What evidence do you have that I do that? Speak for yourself not for me.

"My broader point..." not "You are..." indicated I wasn't speaking for you, or about you, although you may have taken it thus.

You feel you have enough information to make the statements you have, as do others. I am uncomfortable, for reasons I have explained. A previous poster has pointed out first hand the differences they observed between press coverage and the actual court proceedings having been a sitting Juror.

I am aware of the ease with which I can slip into confirmation bias and make my best attempts to counter the tendency. Perhaps you are not subject to this, though.

Bonefishblues
Posts: 3258
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Driver telling blatant lies to try and get ban shortened

Postby Bonefishblues » 28 Nov 2017, 6:23pm

reohn2 wrote:
thirdcrank wrote:Unfortunately, the link in the OP seems to have crashed at the moment (all the attention from members of this forum?)

Anyway, I've found another and I was encouraged by this from the judge.

The judge told Hill: "While life is hard for you being disqualified, I have to bear in mind that life is intolerably hard for Beth Tyson and Kate Hunter.

"The disqualification is part of the punishment - it is a significant part of the sentence, it is meant to hurt."

http://www.lincolnshirelive.co.uk/news/ ... ves-838711

With a bit more of that approach we might see fewer findings of special reasons etc., based on the flimsiest of grounds.


+1
Whilst I think rehabilitation should be part of any sentence the approach shown by this judge in the circumstances of this case is the correct one IMHO.

As do I, for the record.

brynpoeth
Posts: 2760
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: Driver telling blatant lies to try and get ban shortened

Postby brynpoeth » 28 Nov 2017, 6:53pm

Anyone got experience or views about *restorative justice*?

If I were a victim I would not want to meet the criminal I think
Cycling? Of course, but it's far better on a Gillott

Bonefishblues
Posts: 3258
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Driver telling blatant lies to try and get ban shortened

Postby Bonefishblues » 28 Nov 2017, 7:07pm

brynpoeth wrote:Anyone got experience or views about *restorative justice*?

If I were a victim I would not want to meet the criminal I think

I think that's the key - it needs to be victim - led. I note that one victim engaged with the process in this case, the other did not. One victim is clearly moving on, the other continues to be bitter, based on attributed quotes, and with good reason. Whether RJ would have assisted or not, who knows, but it has no chance of having a positive effect if the victim does not wish it.

pete75
Posts: 8531
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Driver telling blatant lies to try and get ban shortened

Postby pete75 » 28 Nov 2017, 9:55pm

Bonefishblues wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:My broader point is that on occasion it seems that when a press report suits our pov we accept it as verbatim, and complete, and are willing to draw conclusions from it.

When the converse applies, the press is unreliable, biased, and much else.


What evidence do you have that I do that? Speak for yourself not for me.

"My broader point..." not "You are..." indicated I wasn't speaking for you, or about you, although you may have taken it thus.

You feel you have enough information to make the statements you have, as do others. I am uncomfortable, for reasons I have explained. A previous poster has pointed out first hand the differences they observed between press coverage and the actual court proceedings having been a sitting Juror.

I am aware of the ease with which I can slip into confirmation bias and make my best attempts to counter the tendency. Perhaps you are not subject to this, though.


In your sentence starting "My broader point" replying to my post you used used the term we. That would seem to indicate you are attempting to speak for me. Just speak for yourself.
All you know is you can easily slip into so called confirmation bias not if or any other individual can or not. Perhaps you should restrict your attempts at pop psychology to yourself.

Bonefishblues
Posts: 3258
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Driver telling blatant lies to try and get ban shortened

Postby Bonefishblues » 28 Nov 2017, 10:23pm

pete75 wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:
pete75 wrote:
What evidence do you have that I do that? Speak for yourself not for me.

"My broader point..." not "You are..." indicated I wasn't speaking for you, or about you, although you may have taken it thus.

You feel you have enough information to make the statements you have, as do others. I am uncomfortable, for reasons I have explained. A previous poster has pointed out first hand the differences they observed between press coverage and the actual court proceedings having been a sitting Juror.

I am aware of the ease with which I can slip into confirmation bias and make my best attempts to counter the tendency. Perhaps you are not subject to this, though.


In your sentence starting "My broader point" replying to my post you used used the term we. That would seem to indicate you are attempting to speak for me. Just speak for yourself.
All you know is you can easily slip into so called confirmation bias not if or any other individual can or not. Perhaps you should restrict your attempts at pop psychology to yourself.

Pop psychology it isn't. It's very real, very evident, and many are very unaware of it.

pete75
Posts: 8531
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Driver telling blatant lies to try and get ban shortened

Postby pete75 » 30 Nov 2017, 12:17pm

Bonefishblues wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:"My broader point..." not "You are..." indicated I wasn't speaking for you, or about you, although you may have taken it thus.

You feel you have enough information to make the statements you have, as do others. I am uncomfortable, for reasons I have explained. A previous poster has pointed out first hand the differences they observed between press coverage and the actual court proceedings having been a sitting Juror.

I am aware of the ease with which I can slip into confirmation bias and make my best attempts to counter the tendency. Perhaps you are not subject to this, though.


In your sentence starting "My broader point" replying to my post you used used the term we. That would seem to indicate you are attempting to speak for me. Just speak for yourself.
All you know is you can easily slip into so called confirmation bias not if or any other individual can or not. Perhaps you should restrict your attempts at pop psychology to yourself.

Pop psychology it isn't. It's very real, very evident, and many are very unaware of it.


Oh I don't doubt that it exists. What I regard as pop psychology are your attempts to attribute it to people you don't know.

RichK
Posts: 14
Joined: 16 Oct 2016, 11:02pm

Re: Driver telling blatant lies to try and get ban shortened

Postby RichK » 30 Nov 2017, 1:30pm

brynpoeth wrote:Anyone got experience or views about *restorative justice*?

If I were a victim I would not want to meet the criminal I think


When I got run over, I was asked if I'd be up for meeting them. After a bit of thought, I said yes. He said no (or his mom(?) said no - he was 16 at the time). That was the end of it.

Bonefishblues
Posts: 3258
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Driver telling blatant lies to try and get ban shortened

Postby Bonefishblues » 30 Nov 2017, 4:55pm

pete75 wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:
pete75 wrote:
In your sentence starting "My broader point" replying to my post you used used the term we. That would seem to indicate you are attempting to speak for me. Just speak for yourself.
All you know is you can easily slip into so called confirmation bias not if or any other individual can or not. Perhaps you should restrict your attempts at pop psychology to yourself.

Pop psychology it isn't. It's very real, very evident, and many are very unaware of it.


Oh I don't doubt that it exists. What I regard as pop psychology are your attempts to attribute it to people you don't know.

I wasn't. With this clarified, I hope that can be an end to this.

pete75
Posts: 8531
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Driver telling blatant lies to try and get ban shortened

Postby pete75 » 30 Nov 2017, 7:34pm

Bonefishblues wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:Pop psychology it isn't. It's very real, very evident, and many are very unaware of it.


Oh I don't doubt that it exists. What I regard as pop psychology are your attempts to attribute it to people you don't know.

I wasn't. With this clarified, I hope that can be an end to this.


Yeah ok - I'll believe you though thousands wouldn't.

brynpoeth
Posts: 2760
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: Driver telling blatant lies to try and get ban shortened

Postby brynpoeth » 30 Nov 2017, 8:04pm

Here is a good book about pop psychology
The Examined Life by Stephen Grosz, written jargon free in short chapters, it helped me a lot

Wolfgang Schmidbauer is very good too (in German)
Cycling? Of course, but it's far better on a Gillott