Group Rides - being left behind

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mnichols
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Group Rides - being left behind

Post by mnichols »

There is a Facebook article going around called "7 things only slow cyclists understand'

One of them struck a chord "The Heartbreak of Watching the Group Fade Away Over the Top of the Climb"

I remember the first time it happened to me. It seemed to tap into something primeval. Logically it was no problem - I usually ride on my own, wasn't in difficulty and knew the way. But the feeling of seeing the group go and not being able to keep up was gutral. I was reminded of it years later when watching a nature documentary about animal migrations. Those that couldn't keep up were left behind to starve or be picked off by predators, and wondered whether it taps into some ancient nomadic instincts?
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mjr
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Re: Group Rides - being left behind

Post by mjr »

More groups should have backmarkers IMO.
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horizon
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Re: Group Rides - being left behind

Post by horizon »

I used to think that it was a peculiarity of group cycle rides that they must encourage a "race to the top": each cyclist believes he/she is in danger of being the slowest, even if not actually left behind. After all, it would be bad enough just having the group wait for you at the top of the hill. This means that the slower riders would be tempted to reduce the weight of their bikes and ride harder and faster to keep up. This would now put pressure on the formerly faster riders in the group to do the same and so on in a vicious circle fuelled by the fear of being the slowest. Other group activities iike sailing a boat together may not have this effect - you cannot go faster than the group. Even if the group leader courteously waits for the slower riders, it still isn't a pleasant experience.

Of course, that pressure will encourage riders to get fitter and faster so it isn't necessarily a bad thing and I imagine that in any case groups eventually settle down and find a rhythm that suits everyone (although possibly losing a few members along the way who simply decide it isn't for them).

Anyone riding with someone else, even their friend or partner, faces the same problem: it is in the nature of cycling (unless on a tandem) - going cycling with someone is almost a contradiction in terms. Having said that, I still think there must be pressure when cycling in groups to buy lighter equipment just to assuage the fear of being left behind and that there is an arms race as the other riders match and raise.
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mjr
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Re: Group Rides - being left behind

Post by mjr »

I don't understand what is so bad about the group waiting. They get to enjoy the view longer!
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Tigerbiten
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Re: Group Rides - being left behind

Post by Tigerbiten »

But if you're the tail end charlie, then you don't get to rest at the top of the hill like all the others.
Or if you do then it's not as long.
This makes you more tired -> slower -> less rest -> etc, etc.
It's a soul destroying vicious circle which you cannot do anything about, I know as I've been there ...... :(

In the end you don't enjoy it as much, therefore you quit riding ...... :cry:
Grandad
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Re: Group Rides - being left behind

Post by Grandad »

In the end you don't enjoy it as much, therefore you quit riding


Or find a group that matches your ability. Many clubs have 2 or more differing groups. Mine has 9 every Saturday and 6 others throughout the rest of the week. That's probably why/because we have just under 500 members.
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Si
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Re: Group Rides - being left behind

Post by Si »

First club i rode with had a rule that the first couple to the top then had to ride back down and accompany the back marker to the top. Made things a lot more civilised.
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Paulatic
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Re: Group Rides - being left behind

Post by Paulatic »

Grandad wrote:
In the end you don't enjoy it as much, therefore you quit riding


Or find a group that matches your ability. Many clubs have 2 or more differing groups. Mine has 9 every Saturday and 6 others throughout the rest of the week. That's probably why/because we have just under 500 members.


I suspect you must live in a densely populated area too?
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Re: Group Rides - being left behind

Post by Samuel D »

Horizon and Tigerbiten describe a cycle I have often seen on the road. If you come in expecting a race, you might enjoy yourself. If you expect a ‘group ride’, you’ll be surprised.

Of course fast riders want to work too. But the trouble is that they do so on the climbs. Instead, strong riders should save their efforts for the flats and there pull like carthorses.

In practice, the strong riders often don’t pull hard enough on the flat, presumably because working there doesn’t give them the childish satisfaction of dropping half the group. And conversely, the weak riders often can’t draft efficiently (especially if there’s any wind), and so one or two are often dropped even on the flat, should the strong riders pull.

Group riding = drafting! Roughly speaking, there is no excuse for being dropped on the flat. And for the same reason that useful attacks in races come on the climbs, big efforts by strong riders on a group ride should not come on the climbs. The strong riders should work on the flat, raising the speed of the whole group without splitting it.

Otherwise, group rides may only be enjoyable for everyone if everyone is of similar ability.

Here endeth my sermon.
tatanab
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Re: Group Rides - being left behind

Post by tatanab »

Grandad wrote:Or find a group that matches your ability. Many clubs have 2 or more differing groups.
Exactly that. You would not join a tennis club and expect to play among their most skilled players. I started riding in the late 60s (CTC) and whilst you were looked after you were expected to improve which is done by stretching yourself. In the late 70s I moved house and rode with a different DA. One year they decided to ride at the pace of the slowest. Hence the slow rider never got stretched so never improved and dropped out of cycling, and in the meantime the core riders had got bored and gone riding elsewhere.

Just be sure that when you ride with a slower group you are not the one forcing the pace yourself.
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Re: Group Rides - being left behind

Post by Vorpal »

The only time I've been left behind, it was because I joined a group that was somewhat faster than I was used to, and I knew it could be a possibility.

Club runs at the club I belonged to in the UK were always at the pace of the slowest. When I was pregnant, that was me! Although sometimes, a few people got ahead and waited, there were always at least a couple of people who rode with whomever was at the back. When I wasn't the slowest, sometimes I rode at the back to be sociable with whomever was.

I think quite a few clubs have rides like that. Ours also had faster rides, and sometimes the club run split into two as well, with one group going faster / further than the other.
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mjr
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Re: Group Rides - being left behind

Post by mjr »

Samuel D wrote:Horizon and Tigerbiten describe a cycle I have often seen on the road. If you come in expecting a race, you might enjoy yourself. If you expect a ‘group ride’, you’ll be surprised.

Of course fast riders want to work too. But the trouble is that they do so on the climbs. Instead, strong riders should save their efforts for the flats and there pull like carthorses.

In practice, the strong riders often don’t pull hard enough on the flat, presumably because working there doesn’t give them the childish satisfaction of dropping half the group. And conversely, the weak riders often can’t draft efficiently (especially if there’s any wind), and so one or two are often dropped even on the flat, should the strong riders pull.

Group riding = drafting! Roughly speaking, there is no excuse for being dropped on the flat. And for the same reason that useful attacks in races come on the climbs, big efforts by strong riders on a group ride should not come on the climbs. The strong riders should work on the flat, raising the speed of the whole group without splitting it.

Otherwise, group rides may only be enjoyable for everyone if everyone is of similar ability.

Here endeth my sermon.

A sermon from the cult of speed, from the looks of it. Does "strong" mean fast, "weak" mean slow and "ability" mean speed in the above? Is that the only thing that matters? In other posts, does "improve" mean mainly getting faster?

I guess it depends if you're in one of those drafting obsessed groups where the ride is the point of the ride, rather than than the touring being the point. On good days, I could go faster, but why would I? It's not the point of touring. The point is the day out. We're going somewhere interesting and we're going by cycling there. It's good if everyone has some energy left to enjoy the destination without worrying whether they'll have enough to get home safely. What's the point of torturing the survivors of things like cancer and strokes, or those with chronic illnesses and disabilities in the group? (Although some of them are faster than me much of the time. Not always, but mostly. It depends.) Isn't that disability discrimination at its most insidious? If it's a race training ride, good luck to you, make it clear on the advertising, but that shouldn't be seen as a normal touring group ride IMO.
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Re: Group Rides - being left behind

Post by Samuel D »

If the ride is not about going fast, then why is anyone being dropped on hills or anywhere else? This only happens when people are riding for the exercise or fun of speed.

Every Easter my girlfriend and I organise a picnic ride with friends and acquaintances. No-one is dropped, though people sometimes meander off and get temporarily lost. The ride is not about speed and no-one tries to climb at a hard pace. No real drafting takes place and none is needed. It’s a purely social event, perhaps similar to some of your touring rides.

On rides where speed or distance is part of the fun, drafting enables riders of greatly different pace to ride together in a group at a similar perceived effort, climbs excepted. Therefore climbs should be taken at a gentle pace.

This approach only works if the slow riders know how to draft. Too often they don’t and are uninterested in learning.

It also only works if the fast riders apply their effort to benefit the group. Too often they’d rather drop the group to massage their ego.

“The Heartbreak of Watching the Group Fade Away Over the Top of the Climb” only exists because people treat group riding as competition rather than cooperation. Competition is great, but pick on someone your own size then.
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Re: Group Rides - being left behind

Post by tatanab »

Samuel D wrote:If the ride is not about going fast, then why is anyone being dropped on hills or anywhere else? This only happens when people are riding for the exercise or fun of speed.
Because we all have our individual comfortable climbing efforts due to our physiology or possibly psychology. Similarly we have our own comfortable descending speeds. How frustrating to be stuck behind a nervous descender when I might feel it is safe to let rip. I see no problem with stopping at the top of a hill, not every hillock, or periodically to regroup.
thirdcrank
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Re: Group Rides - being left behind

Post by thirdcrank »

Perhaps attitudes change. :? Perhaps the typical cycling club is less (can't think of the exact word here, possibly "formal" ) in its ways. Once upon a time, a typical club run in this part of the world would only become competitive with something like a sprint to a traffic sign approaching the tea stop. Whatever, this must surely be a two-way thing. If somebody turns up for something listed as a hardriders club run of 120 miles with lunch at Tan Hill Inn and tea in Otley, it's pretty much taken for granted that they are up to it. Something aimed at less experienced or slower riders should be organised accordingly. There are other things here like what happens if somebody has a puncture or a mechanical. I briefly rode with a social group a few years ago and a couple of pretty experienced riders would often be at the start with a mechanical problem, expecting somebody else to have the special tool needed for the repair. On one occasion, the leader who was even older and slower than I am found he had flat batteries in his lamps when it got dark on a midwinter ride. We smuggled him home. By the following Sunday, he hadn't bothered to change them so the first stop on the itinerary was at a newsagents selling batteries where we stood over him till he bought some. :evil:
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