This could save your life

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Revolution
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This could save your life

Postby Revolution » 11 Jan 2018, 2:07pm

Well worth reading this informative article http://singletrackworld.com/2018/01/collision-course-why-this-type-of-road-junction-will-keep-killing-cyclists/
Thanks to Singletrack World for posting it.

brynpoeth
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Re: This could save your life

Postby brynpoeth » 11 Jan 2018, 2:25pm

I do love STOP signs

But nearly all motons ignore them, can't they read?
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tykeboy2003
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Re: This could save your life

Postby tykeboy2003 » 11 Jan 2018, 2:34pm

A very interesting read.

If I had been on the jury I would have pressed for a guilty verdict.

Tangled Metal
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Re: This could save your life

Postby Tangled Metal » 11 Jan 2018, 3:40pm

I wouldn't. It's a classic example of a junction that's not safe and driver training that's not fit for purpose.

Near me there's a similar crossroads but it's clearly dangerous because hedges block the views even up to the stop line. Cars on the main road can be at anything from 40 to 60+ mph. Anything above 40 isn't safe IMHO and I'm speaking as a former 60+ mph driver of that road. That speed makes pulling out of the side road dangerous. Driver error is the best you could say if there's a collision at speed.

Then there's bad designs like the old junction 34 on the M6 north. A very tight bend that you can't see the motorway traffic until the end and you cannot get up to motorway speeds neither. Plus it's an uphill junction. The number of times I've had to stop and wait in the very small lead in. Plus the number of collisions I've turned up just afterwards. I've seen a few too. The whole junction was made worse by no hard shoulder to escape onto it needed. I always said it should have been closed down and made northbound exit and southbound fully open it just the junction onto the motorway.

Basically I believe there's no impetus to review junctions for safety and pay to redesign them if necessary. IMHO two or more similar collisions, with our without death or serious injury, should be redesigned. If not then any subsequent collision becomes at least partly the responsibility of the authority concerned. We have relatively safe roads compared to other countries but should not sit back and let these junctions go without change.

Tangled Metal
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Re: This could save your life

Postby Tangled Metal » 11 Jan 2018, 3:45pm

It reminds me of those signs saying X number of deaths on that stretch of road over 5 years. Well why have they not done something about it? Putting a sign up is a temporary measure while you're designing something that actually changes the statistics. A South African once told me that their roads are so long and flat between states that drivers fail asleep on them. So every so many miles they put a kink in the road to make drivers think more and keep them awake. Not sure if it works but there's an attempt at improving something that's wrong. We don't seem to do that so much.

brynpoeth
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Re: This could save your life

Postby brynpoeth » 11 Jan 2018, 4:30pm

Curves could be introduced before the junctions to make the motons slow down
STOP signs are generally ignored, but do the idiots slow down for them a bit more than for Give Way signs?
Locals who know the way ignore signs anyway

I wonder how many near misses there were at this junction
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Wanlock Dod
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Re: This could save your life

Postby Wanlock Dod » 11 Jan 2018, 6:10pm

Tangled Metal wrote:...clearly dangerous because hedges block the views...

I'm not sure of the circumstances of a particular junction, but the opposite can be true in that drivers can approach junctions (where they are supposed to give way) very fast because there is a good view. If the view on the approach was obscured most drivers would tend to slow down to a more acceptable speed as they approach the junction.

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Paulatic
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Re: This could save your life

Postby Paulatic » 11 Jan 2018, 6:21pm

Wanlock Dod wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:...clearly dangerous because hedges block the views...

I'm not sure of the circumstances of a particular junction, but the opposite can be true in that drivers can approach junctions (where they are supposed to give way) very fast because there is a good view. If the view on the approach was obscured most drivers would tend to slow down to a more acceptable speed as they approach the junction.

Very true , there were no end of accidents here https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Mof ... cb2ed49fde where the B7076 meets the A701
Those open verges have now been built up with mounds of earth both sides and there is no line of sight until you halt at road end.
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roberts8
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Re: This could save your life

Postby roberts8 » 11 Jan 2018, 7:55pm

A timely warning if on a bike or driving. I am no expert but would a rumble strip help?
We used to sail and it was amazing how long some people would remain on collision course before becoming aware until a mention to the skipper. Thanks

Tangled Metal
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Re: This could save your life

Postby Tangled Metal » 11 Jan 2018, 9:30pm

Wanlock Dod wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:...clearly dangerous because hedges block the views...

I'm not sure of the circumstances of a particular junction, but the opposite can be true in that drivers can approach junctions (where they are supposed to give way) very fast because there is a good view. If the view on the approach was obscured most drivers would tend to slow down to a more acceptable speed as they approach the junction.

Well the junction I'm thinking of is where a road crosses a main road that's descending from the left (the other side of the road has a wide grass verge on the corners allowing a good enough viewing distance when stopped at the junction). The hedges are at the edge of the minor road. In light of the fast country road (straight or sun very fast bends) that's a bit of a rat run. There is not enough visibility to cross the fast road or join it. To see you have to sneak out a bit. Fortunately with the higher section of road being to the left the fastest speeds are on the opposite side of the carriageway. However the cars from the right are not that much slower.

There needs to be a balance on visibility. Each junction is unique so needs to be designed for what is there. Fast roads do need a degree of visibility on side roads. You have to be able to see further than the stopping distance of cars using the main road. They have to see you to be able to react to you coming out of needed. Other roads can have too much visibility. It's a balancing act I suppose.

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horizon
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Re: This could save your life

Postby horizon » 11 Jan 2018, 10:47pm

The well known author of this piece writes on another (linked) article:

save for the logic that one might apply if one were trying to kill people.


I was once criticised on this forum for suggesting that there is a highways version of a Harold Shipman at large but in fact we are looking at a whole profession. It is only kindness on our part that stops us from suggesting that the engineering profession is out to kill cyclists - the facts might suggest that they undoubtedly are.
Let's just get Brexit done so that we can get on with the important job of re-joining the EU!

Postboxer
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Re: This could save your life

Postby Postboxer » 11 Jan 2018, 11:24pm

How about erecting stop signs and a camera to catch those who don't, or a short section close to the junction with a low speed limit, again with a camera to stop speeders. The article doesn't mention if the first driver was prosecuted, it must have been reported on at some time, either from a prosecution of the driver involved or possibly as part of an inquest into one of the deaths.

I can think of two junctions that have had a kink added to stop people ploughing straight through them, well I'm assuming that's what has happened.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.13876 ... 312!8i6656

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.03083 ... 312!8i6656

Pete Owens
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Re: This could save your life

Postby Pete Owens » 12 Jan 2018, 12:42am

Cross-roads have long been known to be the most dangerous form of junction - whether or not there is excessive visibility (another well known cause of crashes which I will come to later). The principle problem with cross-roads is that people approaching from either direction have the view of a straight road stretching into the distance. There is nothing inherent in the physical layout to indicate the possibility of conflicting traffic movements. It is not so much that drivers fail to predict the potential collision; it is that the fail to notice that there is a junction at all. Modern highway design avoids cross-roads with the sole exception of cycle tracks crossing side roads (which is why cycle tracks have such a poor safety record at such junctions.

The second issue is indeed excessive visibility. As explained in the drawings it is very difficult to judge the relative movement of another object from a moving vehicle. Again this has been known about for a long time. Intuitively, you would expect good visibility to be good for safety - so traffic engineers used to design junctions to give as much visibility as possible, only to discover that this made things worse. It is common now to see screens put up to limit the visibility on the approach to junctions.

The third issue is the rules of priority. Once you give priority to one driver over another it places the entire burden of avoiding a crash on the other driver. Four-way stops or roundabouts require everyone to take care - so if one driver makes a mistake then the other one can deal with it - it needs both drivers to foul up to result in a crash.

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mjr
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Re: This could save your life

Postby mjr » 12 Jan 2018, 9:56am

roberts8 wrote:A timely warning if on a bike or driving. I am no expert but would a rumble strip help?

By making the cyclists crash on the approach instead? :roll:
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reohn2
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Re: This could save your life

Postby reohn2 » 12 Jan 2018, 10:34am

I own and drive a 2009 Ford Cmax that has the worst A pillar blind spot I've seen in any other car I've owned or driven,and when I first got it I very nearly hit a cyclist who was completely hidden within it.
I'm aware of this very bad design fault and so in certain situations where necessary look around it to get a full view of the road,but TBH Inititially I had no idea just how big the blind spot was and it did come as a bit of a shock when the cyclist appeared 'as if from nowhere' :shock: .
As a result I fully appreciate Bez's analogy of the Ipley cross junction.
To offer another solution to Ipley cross is to raise and tablate the whole crossing to force traffic to slow to <5mph to negotiate the crossing,and arguably the two STOP legs extenteded out of the junction by approx 2m.
There are many other junctions equally as dangerous,but the Ipley cross seems to fall into the catagory of a feeling of safety for users because of the good sightlines and a lack of appreciation and lack of tolerance of cyclists using the road system.

PS, the drivers were driving dangerously in all incidents IMHO.
My 2d's worth
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