Should you have lights on during the day?

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drossall
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Postby drossall » 15 Jan 2018, 11:52pm

Pretty obviously, all road users need to see each other. However, as far as I'm aware the available statistics suggest that motorists failing to see (or respond to the presence of) cyclists is a substantially bigger problem than the other way around. So, anything that makes it easier to spot other cars, and relatively harder to spot bikes, is likely to make things worse for cyclists.

As motorists, we can afford a culture of "No, look at me, not him!" As cyclists, we can't.

Carpediem
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Postby Carpediem » 16 Jan 2018, 12:17am

PDQ Mobile wrote:Hmm, it's all about one being seen.
Nothing else is important.


I am a rural driver, anything that helps be seen is good.IMV.
More important on a grey or green vehicle than a yellow one?

A great many vehicles have daytime running lights anyway?


What he said.. All about being seen.
I've ran daytime lights for 2 yrs, and am convinced it must make cycling safer...but wouldn't want to see them made compulsory
Those who want to stay in the dark ages are quite entitled to do so and I wish them the best of luck.

awavey
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Postby awavey » 16 Jan 2018, 12:46am

Carpediem wrote:What he said.. All about being seen.
I've ran daytime lights for 2 yrs, and am convinced it must make cycling safer...but wouldn't want to see them made compulsory
Those who want to stay in the dark ages are quite entitled to do so and I wish them the best of luck.


convinced based on what ? my view is if you cant see an adult sized object on a bike on a road in front of you, theres fat lot of difference a bike light is going to make to that situation anyway in the daylight, the issue isnt drivers cant see you, its that a bunch of them just cant be bothered to look, and another bunch of them look, see you and think ah sod Ill pull out anyway because you are just a bike and youll stop or you aint that fast. which is exactly the same attitude you encounter whilst driving around in a car except we discount the they couldnt see us because I hadnt got the power of the sun as headlights alerting them to my presence.

so I run lights at night, and in conditions if theres poor visibility, fog,rain,mist etc, I dont run them in daylight, and I dont remotely think it makes my cycling any less safe in any shape or form.

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Cunobelin
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Postby Cunobelin » 16 Jan 2018, 6:22am

Time and time again it is proven that visibility is NOT the issue

Yet still we refuse to address the real problem

The two biggest factors are not looking properly, followed by not responding properly when they do look

You could carry a full beam searchlight array and in these cases if they have only looked at the centre of the road, or decided "it is only a cyclist , they don't travel at more than 5 mph...." then it will make no difference whatsoever!

softlips
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Postby softlips » 16 Jan 2018, 7:21am

Cunobelin wrote:Time and time again it is proven that visibility is NOT the issue

Yet still we refuse to address the real problem

The two biggest factors are not looking properly, followed by not responding properly when they do look

You could carry a full beam searchlight array and in these cases if they have only looked at the centre of the road, or decided "it is only a cyclist , they don't travel at more than 5 mph...." then it will make no difference whatsoever!



Have to agree. I do use lights in the daytime if light is in anyway reduced though.

captain offensive
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Postby captain offensive » 16 Jan 2018, 7:41am

It's doubtless true that not looking is the biggest cause of incidents. So anything that helps must be good. I often (not always) ride with a flashing (not too bright) front light when on roads in daytime. I've read studies that lights can help drivers be aware of speed of travel. Also flashing lights offer sense of movement which the drivers eyes should pick up on.



I don't get the argument that you are training people not to look for cyclists. That's barmy. It's like saying we shouldn't ring a bell as people should be trained to hear the sound of just the bike

pwa
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Postby pwa » 16 Jan 2018, 8:21am

Daytime running lights on motor vehicles are a fact, whatever anyone might think of them. They are not going to go away. So as cyclists we are sharing the road with vehicles that are predominantly lit up all the time. It is for each of us to respond to that fact in our own way.

I've not yet resorted to permanent front lighting, though I have got into the habit of having a flashing rear light in daytime, except on the brightest days. My front lights go on in gloomy weather. But my cycling is mostly rural. If I cycled in a city I think I'd probably have adopted front and rear daylight lighting by now.

The first example of daylight lighting I can remember was in the 1970s, when motorcyclists were encouraged to use their lights permanently to get noticed by people who might pull out in front of them. As an idea it is as old as the hills.

Does it work? I don't know. And when I don't know I make a judgement based on my own experiences. At the moment I prefer to be noticed, largely by having hi-viz/ reflective clothing, but also by having good lights in darkness or low light. I can imagine drifting towards full daylight lighting but I haven't got there yet.

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mjr
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Postby mjr » 16 Jan 2018, 9:33am

captain offensive wrote:It's doubtless true that not looking is the biggest cause of incidents. So anything that helps must be good. I often (not always) ride with a flashing (not too bright) front light when on roads in daytime. I've read studies that lights can help drivers be aware of speed of travel. Also flashing lights offer sense of movement which the drivers eyes should pick up on.

But conversely, research suggests that flashing lights don't impart a sense of speed of travel. What studies were you reading?

Also, is this "anything that helps"? Does it help? What is the effect on casualty rates?
I don't get the argument that you are training people not to look for cyclists. That's barmy. It's like saying we shouldn't ring a bell as people should be trained to hear the sound of just the bike

I don't understand that analogy. Plus, the arguments are that you're encouraging motorists to look for lights rather than anything else - not only not looking for cyclists, but walkers, animals, boulders in the middle of the road - but more importantly, that you're encouraging the view that running over anyone unlit is OK.
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The utility cyclist
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Postby The utility cyclist » 16 Jan 2018, 11:32am

Bez wrote:But, on a personal basis, do you nobly volunteer yourself as a conceivably sacrificial tool in the process of training drivers to look out for things without lights, or do you adopt what measures you perceive to be potentially effective in the interests of making it home in one piece?

Have been nobly sacrificing myself without lights in the day on a bike since 1983 thanks, the time I was hit and run was when I had lights on (though at night), I think I'll stick to what I know is actually proven to be best for myself and others by not putting something on that encourages victim blaming and modification of the behaviour of the vulnerable instead of those posing the harm.
Time and again people on bikes make totally irrational decision making compared to virtually every other aspect of their lives, they use hearsay and flawed thinking as well as debunked 'facts' often making matters worse for them individually both directly and as a consequence of that action that forms part of the larger group doing the same stupid, illogical action.

People using daytime lights just like hi-vis and helmets have a hefty part in making cycling more dangerous, not just for themselves but for everyone.

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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Postby Bez » 16 Jan 2018, 12:06pm

The utility cyclist wrote:I think I'll stick to what I know is actually proven to be best for myself and others by not putting something on that encourages victim blaming and modification of the behaviour of the vulnerable instead of those posing the harm.


Yet you presumably use a rear light at night, which does precisely what you describe. The purpose of rear lights is to allow people behind you to go faster than their lights alone permit.

The utility cyclist wrote:Time and again people on bikes make totally irrational decision making compared to virtually every other aspect of their lives, they use hearsay and flawed thinking as well as debunked 'facts'


Well, I was wondering whether you were going to expand on your "what I know is actually proven to be best" remark… ;)

The utility cyclist wrote:People using daytime lights just like hi-vis and helmets have a hefty part in making cycling more dangerous, not just for themselves but for everyone.


You complain about victim blaming behaviour, yet you're doing it yourself. You're blaming people for the danger that drivers present to you, purely because they see the same danger and want to clutch at whatever straws they find reasonable. Bit rich, isn't it?

PDQ Mobile
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Postby PDQ Mobile » 16 Jan 2018, 12:12pm

My stated position is that I think dipped headlghts are a useful safety aid on cars in rural situations.
Sometimes I would apply that to bikes.
I am not sure whether flashing or steady is better though I tend to use steady when I do.

I wonder if any urban cyclists would like to comment on the usefulness of a front light (flashing or steady) in avoiding the dreaded dooring?

tatanab
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Postby tatanab » 16 Jan 2018, 12:22pm

Do people who use day time light ride only a couple of hours? How would one cope on a real old style day ride? Carry spare lights because the batteries in your hyper light are not replaceable? What happens when you go on tour for a month?

Sunday was a slightly overcast day and I saw several cyclists with headlights, constant and flashing. I can honestly say that I noticed the rider before I saw the lights, especially the little tiny single point lights some were using. I admit, I was cycling myself so my vision was not obstructed by a dirty windscreen.

Back in the summer, a bright day, I was driving in slow town centre traffic and I had to tilt down my rear view mirror because the randomly flashing hyper light used by a cyclist behind me was -----------aaaargh!

Bez
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Postby Bez » 16 Jan 2018, 12:24pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:I wonder if any urban cyclists would like to comment on the usefulness of a front light (flashing or steady) in avoiding the dreaded dooring?


I would think that urban drivers would be better placed to comment on that. (In my experience a flashing light, and to a lesser extent a steady one, will usually attract attention in a wing mirror even in peripheral vision, ie when I'm not actively looking there.)

Bez
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Postby Bez » 16 Jan 2018, 12:25pm

tatanab wrote:Do people who use day time light ride only a couple of hours?


Dynamos. (Or, I suppose, one of the numerous lights which will run for 24h+)

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Postby [XAP]Bob » 16 Jan 2018, 12:33pm

tatanab wrote:Back in the summer, a bright day, I was driving in slow town centre traffic and I had to tilt down my rear view mirror because the randomly flashing hyper light used by a cyclist behind me was -----------aaaargh!

The word you are looking for is illegal.

Both because it was clearly dazzling, and because the only permissible flashing mode is 1-4Hz, 50% even duty cycle.

But I still think we should be cracking down on fog light usage first...
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