Should you have lights on during the day?

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
Cyril Haearn
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Post by Cyril Haearn »

Carpediem wrote:Don't care what all the in depth tests show, going out without lights (non flashing though)would for me like not wearing a crash helmet,it's now become a habit.
As for tests the saying goes there's lies ,damned lies and statistics.

I still maintain that most motorists give lit bikes a slightly wider berth,apart from the odd skip wagons and those 16 wheelers carrying landfill waste etc..they seem to always be on a mission to get where they're going as fast as possible and let nothing or nobody get in their way, and they probably wouldn't even know they had hit you ..I have to admit they really scare me.
On my local 2 lane 40mph B roads me doing maybe 18mph if I see or hear one of these coming up behind me I often think of moving out into the middle of the road when it narrows and I know they're going to get close to pass me, and move back where the road widens again,but I can never quite muster up the courage to do it for fear of being mowed down.
What do you other folks do in these situations??


I do not ride on the road because the great majority of motons habitually ignore the law, not just drivers of big vehicles
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Post by PDQ Mobile »

Cyril Haearn wrote:
I do not ride on the road because the great majority of motons habitually ignore the law, not just drivers of big vehicles


Are you serious Bryn?
I am surprised, if you are, that you feel qualified to comment, about dooring, eye contact, hi-viz etc.
No wonder a highly developed sense of air pressure is useful.
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Post by PDQ Mobile »

[XAP]Bob wrote:
Don't care what all the in depth tests show, going out without lights (non flashing though)would for me like not wearing a crash helmet,it's now become a habit.


Not wishing to get this thread banished to the ghetto... but this is the problem.

Safety interventions should be backed by evidence, and neither DLRs nor magic hats have supporting evidence of significant benefit.

Else it’s equallt valid to say that:
Its become habit to carry a rabbits foot, and I haven’t been attacked by a lion, so I suggest we make that mandatory in the UK...



Your dismissal of statistics does nothing for your arguement, it’s as bad as the seemingly popular ‘we’re sick of experts’ from the current politicians.
Scientific studies are/should be the method we use to generate evidence for safety interventions - as far as I am aware there are no studies showing a benefit from DLRs on bikes in the UK, let alone studies of DLRs on pedal cycles.

As an example do you think the Swiss decision to make the use of daytime dipped headlights mandatory was based upon "rabbits feet"?
I feel not but can't be bothered to search for the evidence. It's out there if you look.

While not totally relevant to the "be seen approaching" debate, I agree with "carpediem" that drivers give more room to a bike with flashing rear light. Not all but many.

As to hi-viz putting off people cycling, well it may put some off I suppose but not as many the accident statistics do. Or the poor provision of bikes on trains, road facilities, cycle parking etc.
FwIW I still think a front light is help against dooring too, in those situations where I don't feel comfortable being a full door width out all of the time.
I am totally and utterly happy for you to ride without lights but given, a deal of personal experience, solid gut feeling and some research, I don't think you should preach, "daylights are useless, daylights pollute", to those that wish to use them.
Last edited by PDQ Mobile on 22 Jan 2018, 9:43am, edited 1 time in total.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Post by [XAP]Bob »

As an example do you think the Swiss decision to make the use of daytime dipped headlights mandatory was based upon "rabbits feet"?
I feel not but can't be bothered to search for the evidence. It's out there if you look.


Are Swiss cyclists required to run dipped headlights then?


in those situations where I don't feel comfortable being a full door width

Why on earth would you be more comfortable cycling *in* the door zone, than outside it.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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Lance Dopestrong
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Post by Lance Dopestrong »

The Swiss decision about dipped headlights for daytime use - as opposed to dim-dip or DRL - was a political one, with no foundation on any proven scientific observation. Much like the UK decision to make road workers wear fluorescent, despite no observable reduction in roadworker casualties linked to their use.

As aforementioned, there is no evidence that DRLs have any safety impact outside of a Northern Scandinavian climate, yet they were still mandated Europe wide. You say you can't be bothered to search for the data - well maybe you should, because I have.

Political decisions are driven by many things, foremost the ability to get elected again. Doing what is right to society or right in science falls way down then list, because those decisions are the ones that would quite often prevent their reelection.
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Post by PDQ Mobile »

Bob.
No not bikes, cars.
Sorry I thought "headlights" was clear.
They obviously had research evidence that there were safety benefits?

Dooring
On the high street of my local town, dead straight two ped crossings, loads of parking sometime one side sometimes both. Several junctions, a roundabout and a big cross roads.
Two way but narrow.
I don't feel happy being so far out, out but not so far out.
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Lance Dopestrong
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Post by Lance Dopestrong »

Let us also not forget that Switzerland tried to follow Brussels with plans to make in-built leg protection compulsory on motorcycles, despite a goodly weight of evidence that they actually tore riders in half at the hip, disabling them at best, killing them at worst. The proposal was only defeated after a massive campaign. Now this one is particularly interesting, because Switzerland was simply following Brussels (the EC as it was them) lead on this one, and it eventually transpired that the EC politician in charge of navigating the proposal into law had a personal vendetta against motorcyclists because his Wife had an affair with a biker. The proposal was not based on any technical or statistical data whatsoever.

So despite the evidence from TuV, the TRRL (as it was then) and the manufacturers, Switzerland came within a whisker of making leg protectors mandatory.

Like most other western nations, Switzerland has a history of nannying its citizens, quite often contrary to any scientifically proven reason. I'm sure if they jumped off the proverbial cliff you'd be happy to join them, just because they'd done so?
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Post by [XAP]Bob »

PDQ Mobile wrote:Bob.
No not bikes, cars.
Sorry I thought "headlights" was clear.
They obviously had research evidence that there were safety benefits?

I thought we were talking about pedal cycle lighting though...
They didn't 'obviously have research evidence' because one can count on the fingers of no hands the number of times that evidence has led political policy.
Saying "they legislated, so it must be evidence based" is naive at best, and deliberately dishonest at worst.


Dooring
On the high street of my local town, dead straight two ped crossings, loads of parking sometime one side sometimes both. Several junctions, a roundabout and a big cross roads.
Two way but narrow.
I don't feel happy being so far out, out but not so far out.


So you choose to travel in the door zone rather than the road. What makes you unhappy to be 'so far' out?
You'd still be well inside the area swept by a car travelling in your direction.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Post by PDQ Mobile »

Perhaps you would post the link to the Swiss decision being a political or a personal one?

I can't see why they would take such a decision unless someone in Govt had shares in bulb manufacture.

As an aside, given the huge numbers of (mostly) summer motorcyclists in the region and the appalling accident rate they have, I guess to try to protect them wasn't a bad idea as such?
They didn't implement leg guard business anyway. So "nanny state" was away that day?
Though I have to say I have no knowledge of motorcyling law anywhere.
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Post by PDQ Mobile »

[XAP]Bob wrote:
PDQ Mobile wrote:Bob.
No not bikes, cars.
Sorry I thought "headlights" was clear.
They obviously had research evidence that there were safety benefits?

I thought we were talking about pedal cycle lighting though...
They didn't 'obviously have research evidence' because one can count on the fingers of no hands the number of times that evidence has led political policy.
Saying "they legislated, so it must be evidence based" is naive at best, and deliberately dishonest at worst.


Dooring
On the high street of my local town, dead straight two ped crossings, loads of parking sometime one side sometimes both. Several junctions, a roundabout and a big cross roads.
Two way but narrow.
I don't feel happy being so far out, out but not so far out.


So you choose to travel in the door zone rather than the road. What makes you unhappy to be 'so far' out?
You'd still be well inside the area swept by a car travelling in your direction.


Indeed pedal cycle lighting but the debate has already strayed (you too) into hi-viz and car lights, so I think it reasonably relevant.
I have already written much about daytime dipped headlights, why pick up on it now?
T'was merely an example of a country seeing things differently. (no pun intended!)


Yes I am happy on the edge of the doorzone.
It allows traffic coming the other way to pass opened doors or people getting to their cars for example.
FWIW I have never been doored. But I am acutely aware of it's hazard
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Post by [XAP]Bob »

The straying was never into 'I don't know, but there must be some research that supports DRLs on a different vehicle in a different country'

The straying was into - DLRs are a pita, and should be banned, not mandated. High vis and helmets have a similar lack of research support.

I don't know of many motor vehicles that avoid the door zone, other than motorbikes, and therefore if the road is two way there is enough room for you both to be outside the door zone.
Otherwise there isn't actually enough room for two vehicles to pass and you shouldn't encourage it.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Cyril Haearn
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Post by Cyril Haearn »

Was the introduction of daytime lights in Switzerland approved by a referendum?
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Bmblbzzz
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Samuel D wrote:Nice blog entry, gaz.

I agree with the conclusion there:

“It’s quite understandable that in the current environment you might choose to dress up like a roller-disco building site worker to ride to work, but that doesn’t diminish the fact that every time you do so you kick cycling and walking an inch further away from being the sustainable, accessible, scalable and—if we are to have any hope of avoiding an urban dystopia of pollution, disenfranchisement and misery—absolutely essential modes of transport that they are.”

… except that I still struggle to understand it. Aesthetic sense alone should preserve people from using flashing lamps and fluorescent jackets. The contemporary built environment is hideous enough without every moving thing being lit up like a pinball machine. Why does no-one in the UK care a whit about this? It extends to every aspect of life there. Each sodden suburb and grey city is awash in dayglo health and safety warnings about preposterously remote risks. The very road surface has reflectors. How did the nation that built Somerset House and the Jaguar E-Type lose its collective taste overnight? Why do people earnestly modify their environment and behaviour at a cost often greater than the realisation of the supposed hazard?

This DRL business reminds me of Benjamin Franklin’s quote: “Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

Hang onto your principles!

Overall I agree with this and with your statement that "we need more beauty, not ugliness." However, I don't think aesthetic sense contradicts our use of flashing lamps and fluorescent jackets. It's not that I or people who use these them think these things are aesthetically attractive but that human beings, in common with various other species, have an innate attraction to everything that is shiny. I'm not sure what biological purpose this fulfills but it is a universal trait, quite unrelated to aesthetics, which are to some extent culturally determined.
Carpediem
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Post by Carpediem »

Managed to get out for a very welcome ride today. The weather was dull but the visibility was pretty good.
This thread had me paying particular attention to cars running DRLs.
I'd say the vast majority had DRLs on..and soon into my ride I began to realize that strangely I was registering vehicles lights not the cars ,and those without lights came into view a split second later.
This would support the view of some that overtime with the majority of vehicles running DRLs our eyes subconsciously become trained to see lights before the actual vehicles and this therefore must apply to cyclists as well.
Rightly or wrongly more and more cyclists are using DRLs so those who choose not to use them are IMO putting themselves at a real disadvantage when it comes to being seen.
I'm not saying this is right or wrong,its personal choice..it's just the way it will become I think.
This is just my simple laymans thoughts without scientific back up,but hope it makes some sense. :D
Carpediem
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Post by Carpediem »

Carpediem wrote:Managed to get out for a very welcome ride today. The weather was dull but the visibility was pretty good.
This thread had me paying particular attention to cars running DRLs.
I'd say the vast majority had DRLs on..and soon into my ride I began to realize that strangely I was registering vehicles lights not particularly the cars themselves,and that those without lights came into view a split second later.
This would support the view of some that overtime with the majority of vehicles running DRLs our eyes subconsciously become trained to see lights before the actual vehicles and this therefore must apply to cyclists as well.
Rightly or wrongly more and more cyclists are using DRLs so those who choose not to use them are IMO putting themselves at a real disadvantage when it comes to being seen.
I'm not saying this is right or wrong,its personal choice..it's just the way it will become I think.
This is just my simple laymans thoughts without scientific back up,but hope it makes some sense. :D
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