Should you have lights on during the day?

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
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Cyril Haearn
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Post by Cyril Haearn »

pwa wrote:
... quote..
..

But if I were advising the mother or father of a family, with kids waiting for them to return home, I would not advise them to rely on what other road users ought to do.


I am an idealist like many of us here and believe change for the better is possible (1989!*) but we live in a sick situation where ignoring many rules is the norm, obeying the law is abnormal

When driving I obey the law, for normal motons this can be provocative. My solution - to drive as little as possible :D

Especially perverse on bright summer days: drls stay on, they could surely have automatic sensors, maybe motors should be unlit, PoBs and PoFs could be lit (reverse hierarchy)
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PDQ Mobile
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Post by PDQ Mobile »

531colin wrote:
On a "blind summit" the properly dipped headlights of an oncoming car are sufficiently dazzling that I can be driving blind. OK its only for a fraction of a second, but its in a situation where its hard enough to drive completely safely at the best of times.
If you want to check this out, try the "Old Malton Road" from Stamford Bridge.


At night?
I guess there will always be those fractional moments.
So what do you want to do about it?


Rurally more difficult are the intense lights mentioned earlier. Especially not dipped or badly adjusted.
They blind at night, are dangerous, but to drive on a rural road at night without lights is more dangerous!!!
I can't say they totally blind me in the day light though.
Overall IMV dipped well adjusted headlights are a safety advantage to al road users.

You can pick at this and that but I can bring counter arguments. Mirrored junctions for example.
And my earlier query about "dooring" avoidance, only elicited "cycle further out" responses. Which is not the definitive answer one way or the other!
I will always use daytime dipped headlights rurally as I believe it saves lives.

On a bike the situation is less clear to me partly to do with the slower speeds of the bike and it having less mass. Though as a dooring avoidance strategy I think it probably has some merit.IMHO
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NEvans
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Post by NEvans »

tykeboy2003 wrote:I think "no", cyclists shouldn't have lights in the daytime and for the same reason as I'm against hi-vis clothing. All it does is encourage motorists to be more and more lazy.


I see too many idiots on the road in dark clothes (especially in London where I drive most days). Having bright clothes, even if not hi-vis has to be a good thing. And when I go out when light I always have a small flashing light on the back.

tykeboy2003 wrote:Why should one group of road users be forced to go to ridiculous lengths such as daytime lights and hi-vis whilst another can effectively camouflage their vehicles with whatever paint jobs they like (including military style) and hide themselves from view with blacked out windows?


Unfortunately these aren't the ones who worry about getting run over. Their concern is reading their texts or not spilling their costa's. Unfortunately you have to be ready to take evasive action even if you're in the right.
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tykeboy2003
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Post by tykeboy2003 »

NEvans wrote:Unfortunately these aren't the ones who worry about getting run over. Their concern is reading their texts or not spilling their costa's. Unfortunately you have to be ready to take evasive action even if you're in the right.


It doesn't matter how visible you are with these....
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gaz
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Post by gaz »

NEvans wrote:I see too many idiots on the road in dark clothes (especially in London where I drive most days).

Idiots wearing clothes that make them so invisible that you see too many of them :? .
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Whilst badly adjusted beams at night are a pain, they are also itrelevant to the discussion about daytime lights (which is exactly as daft as it sounds)

There is a big yellow light, even when there is a diffuser (clouds) over it it’s insanely bright...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Post by PDQ Mobile »

[XAP]Bob wrote:Whilst badly adjusted beams at night are a pain, they are also itrelevant to the discussion about daytime lights (which is exactly as daft as it sounds)

There is a big yellow light, even when there is a diffuser (clouds) over it it’s insanely bright...


Ah but this was posted by someone else.
http://www.lightmare.org/default.htm

As relevant to using lights in the day time which it isn't.
Its about overly bright headlights the xenon type etc generally but particularly at night.

FWIW I agree. Which is why I brought it up.

It was not clear to me whether Colin531 meant he was blinded on sharp bridge brows in the day or at night either.

As to the big bright yellow thing, it is a great aid to see with but not so good to be seen.
In fact when low in the sky can be quite a hinderance.

Running with lights; it is simply about catching the eye and therefore making another road user aware of one's presence.
I don't find well adjusted normal brightness headlights an intrusion at all. I find them overall a benefit especially in rural places.
That is what I use on my car and I will continue to do so.
Each to his own.

I think there's a reasonable case for front (and rear) daytime lights on bikes too in some places/light conditions. But again we are all free to choose. I mostly choose not to, but there have been some valid points in doing so raised here. Dull daylight conditions maybe?
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Cunobelin
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Post by Cunobelin »

Which brings us to another issue that I have placed in a new thread rather than divert this one off course - poor design of bicycle lights
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Actually light are talks about DLRs extensively as well.

I am not yet in the over 50 category that would expect to find dazzle a significant problem, but I do. DLRs dazzle me in the daytime, because they are often unprotected LED point sources.

That’s whether I’m on a bent or in my car (which is higher than most).

In daylight there is no way that a set of <1W lights can compete with the ~1kW/m^2 which the sun is providing.
People are not invisible - why do we think that adding a set of wheels makes them so?
The issue isn’t visibility it’s attitude..
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Cyril Haearn
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Post by Cyril Haearn »

+1 for lightmare
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pwa
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Post by pwa »

As far as a Lighting Arms Race goes, my new front dynamo light has a claimed 80 lux which puts it into dipped car headlamp territory. If I chose to use that in bright daylight, which I don't, I would already have reached the limit with nothing greater to aspire to. On that basis it would be a short lived arms race.
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mjr
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Post by mjr »

pwa wrote:As far as a Lighting Arms Race goes, my new front dynamo light has a claimed 80 lux which puts it into dipped car headlamp territory. If I chose to use that in bright daylight, which I don't, I would already have reached the limit with nothing greater to aspire to. On that basis it would be a short lived arms race.

If it obeys German rules, its illumination above the horizontal is limited and you're really not near the car limit. See https://www.cyclinguk.org/blog/chris-ju ... y-dazzlers and https://swhs.home.xs4all.nl/fiets/tests ... ex_en.html and other pages on those sites.
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AlaninWales
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Post by AlaninWales »

[XAP]Bob wrote:Actually light are talks about DLRs extensively as well.

Indeed it does, although I meant to post the sister site: http://dadrl.org.uk/
[XAP]Bob wrote:People are not invisible - why do we think that adding a set of wheels makes them so?
The issue isn’t visibility it’s attitude..

Exactly
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NEvans
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Post by NEvans »

gaz wrote:
NEvans wrote:I see too many idiots on the road in dark clothes (especially in London where I drive most days).

Idiots wearing clothes that make them so invisible that you see too many of them :? .


As a fellow cyclist I do watch out for them. My mum doesn't see them as she scrapes past, too busy thinking what a nice garden that is, what shopping she needs etc etc.

AlaninWales wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:People are not invisible - why do we think that adding a set of wheels makes them so?
The issue isn’t visibility it’s attitude..

Exactly

A person not clearly seen on a path is not important, on a set of wheels on the road is... But yes attitudes also need to change.
Newton's first law; Large body mass and weight equals fast going down hill but slow going up,
So blame Newton not me when you're bored waiting at the top of the hill.
pwa
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Post by pwa »

People probably find it easier to see people they are looking directly at, but you also want to be noticed by some people in their peripheral vision. For that, inconspicuous clothing is a great way of really testing that driver's attentiveness. If that is your objective, I recommend grey, black, or any dark colour. Works a treat. And when you are lying on the tarmac you can muse on what that driver who pulled out should have done. You just can't rely on other people doing what they should do, and no amount of testing them with dark clothes will correct that. It may not be fair, but that is the reality.

If anyone is using daytime lights but not using bright clothing, I suspect you may be miscalculating. From a driver's perspective I think a bright yellow top catches my attention better than a front light in daytime and good light.
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