Should you have lights on during the day?

[tykeboy2003]

I think "no", cyclists shouldn't have lights in the daytime and for the same reason as I'm against hi-vis clothing. All it does is encourage motorists to be more and more lazy.

Whilst I agree that being seen is desirable and would like to see the police enforcing things like the use of lights on bikes at night, there is a principle here. Why should one group of road users be forced to go to ridiculous lengths such as daytime lights and hi-vis whilst another can effectively camouflage their vehicles with whatever paint jobs they like (including military style) and hide themselves from view with blacked out windows?

[Ron]

I think dipped headlight on cars in rural places are good.

I think lights on cars on rural roads are a dangerous distraction for other road users and can be a contributory factor to the incidence of road rage.

[AlaninWales]

Since the background includes 'hi-viz' roadside furniture, this simply does not work. 'Hi-viz' clothing looks far too much like a roadside sign (and is therefore easily dismissed as 'obviously not in the way'). Proliferating lights on vehicles makes no-one safer and lighting your 'bike because cars are lit' does not make you stand out as something to be considered. Dazzle camouflage is what is achieved if everyone has lights on and 'hi-viz' - exactly the excuse given (by the police, prompted by a witness) for the killer of Michael Mason.

Can you give examples of hi-viz road furniture? Apart from road cones and the occasional set of stripes at the end of an Armco barrier, I can't think of anything which would look like a cyclist in hi-viz clothing.

It doesn't need to "look like a cyclist" - it just needs to make people familiar enough with a streetscape of reflective/fluo near-rectangles of varying sizes and colours to make them think the back of a cyclist in a hi-viz jacket seems like just another unimportant reflective/fluo rectangle that ain't gonna move in any way that they need to react to.

What MJR said. Additionally have you really never seen yellow hi-viz squares (about person size) beside the road? They are quite common, surrounding speed signs, village signs, camera signs, hazard signs. Perhaps a little more attention to the road signage is needed.

I would say that it is in the interest of all of us on the roads to be able to see each other easily, and that any reasonable measures to promote that should be welcomed. That looks to me like the Common Good. I'm pretty sure hi-viz does that, but I'm not yet convinced that daytime lights, in good light conditions, do that.

As above, hi-viz doesn't improve anyones visibility (no-one is invisible anyway - the black-clad chap crossing the zebra crossing last week as I drove down the hill did not keep disappearing despite no hi-viz).
Lights? http://www.lightmare.org/default.htm have it about right.

[pwa]

When driving, I've never lost sight of a hi-vizzed cyclist because I confused him with a road sign. But only last week I did see a cyclist a bit later than I felt comfortable with because he was cunningly camouflaged in black with a broad light grey stripe down the back. A bit like the Navy do with battleships, and just as effective in the gloomy light with a backdrop of shade under trees. The first thing that told me I was looking at a cyclist was his flashing rear light.

That is how I judge these things. I consider what other cyclists do to be seen, or what they don't do, and how it affects me in the role of a motorist trying to go about my business without harming anyone. Then I apply the most effective things I see to my own cycling, having observed what it looks like from the other side. So far, I'm not completely convinced that daytime front lights make anyone significantly more visible in good light conditions, but I think a bright top (esp. yellow) does.

[[XAP]Bob]

When driving, I've never lost sight of a hi-vizzed cyclist because I confused him with a road sign. But only last week I did see a cyclist a bit later than I felt comfortable with because he was cunningly camouflaged in black with a broad light grey stripe down the back.

A bit later than you were comfortable with. So still with plenty of time to react.
This is the thing - cyclists aren't invisible. And you can tell this by the number of times they get shouted at and told that they are... "Who are you shouting at if I'm invisible?"

People should expect to see other people on the roads, there are few exceptions (almost exclusively motorways, which can be distinguished by the 'cyclist blue' signage ).
People can be walking, cycling, riding a horse, walking a dog, driving cattle, pushing a barrow, on a motorbike, in a car, in a van, in a lorry.
They are all people, and all have the right to use the road (exception noted above). Whatever you are doing on the road, you have to be aware that any person may be doing any of the other things on that same road...

[pwa]

When driving, I've never lost sight of a hi-vizzed cyclist because I confused him with a road sign. But only last week I did see a cyclist a bit later than I felt comfortable with because he was cunningly camouflaged in black with a broad light grey stripe down the back.

A bit later than you were comfortable with. So still with plenty of time to react.
This is the thing - cyclists aren't invisible. And you can tell this by the number of times they get shouted at and told that they are... "Who are you shouting at if I'm invisible?"

People should expect to see other people on the roads, there are few exceptions (almost exclusively motorways, which can be distinguished by the 'cyclist blue' signage ).
People can be walking, cycling, riding a horse, walking a dog, driving cattle, pushing a barrow, on a motorbike, in a car, in a van, in a lorry.
They are all people, and all have the right to use the road (exception noted above). Whatever you are doing on the road, you have to be aware that any person may be doing any of the other things on that same road...

100% agree.

But if I were advising the mother or father of a family, with kids waiting for them to return home, I would not advise them to rely on what other road users ought to do.

[[XAP]Bob]

When driving, I've never lost sight of a hi-vizzed cyclist because I confused him with a road sign. But only last week I did see a cyclist a bit later than I felt comfortable with because he was cunningly camouflaged in black with a broad light grey stripe down the back.

A bit later than you were comfortable with. So still with plenty of time to react.
This is the thing - cyclists aren't invisible. And you can tell this by the number of times they get shouted at and told that they are... "Who are you shouting at if I'm invisible?"

People should expect to see other people on the roads, there are few exceptions (almost exclusively motorways, which can be distinguished by the 'cyclist blue' signage ).
People can be walking, cycling, riding a horse, walking a dog, driving cattle, pushing a barrow, on a motorbike, in a car, in a van, in a lorry.
They are all people, and all have the right to use the road (exception noted above). Whatever you are doing on the road, you have to be aware that any person may be doing any of the other things on that same road...

100% agree.

But if I were advising the mother or father of a family, with kids waiting for them to return home, I would not advise them to rely on what other road users ought to do.

The issue being that for those *not* doing what they ought - it makes absolutely no difference. If they aren't looking where they're going and paying attention then they won't see you - doesn't matter what you are wearing/carrying.

What might make a difference is having a rear view mirror and road sense and/or specific training.
The rear view mirror makes it easy to keep an eye out behind you, the road sense, particularly when backed by training can help you use that information.

[PDQ Mobile]

I think dipped headlight on cars in rural places are good.

I think lights on cars on rural roads are a dangerous distraction for other road users and can be a contributory factor to the incidence of road rage.

Well I disagree with that.
Why should a car with well adjusted lights be a distraction from driving your own vehicle well?
It's just yet another vehicle, they come in all colours, shapes and sizes! And there's lots of them.
Some have lights and some don't. In my view the ones with lights are "picked up" better.
In fact, I know they are in some circumstances!

And as to being contributory to road rage, upon what grounds?
Only a very intolerant driver would have a grudge against well adjusted lights. IMV
Why should anyone resent seeing another car well and in good time?
Does the presence of lights represent some sort of threat?

The other point about overly bright badly adjusted headlights I totally agree with. They are a menace at night on all types of road.

Mind you there's loads of one eyed wonders driving around here at night sometimes without even the sidelight working. One thinks it's a motorcycle until it passes.

[Cunobelin]

When driving, I've never lost sight of a hi-vizzed cyclist because I confused him with a road sign. But only last week I did see a cyclist a bit later than I felt comfortable with because he was cunningly camouflaged in black with a broad light grey stripe down the back. A bit like the Navy do with battleships, and just as effective in the gloomy light with a backdrop of shade under trees. The first thing that told me I was looking at a cyclist was his flashing rear light.

That is how I judge these things. I consider what other cyclists do to be seen, or what they don't do, and how it affects me in the role of a motorist trying to go about my business without harming anyone. Then I apply the most effective things I see to my own cycling, having observed what it looks like from the other side. So far, I'm not completely convinced that daytime front lights make anyone significantly more visible in good light conditions, but I think a bright top (esp. yellow) does.

Unless riding through Norfolk where mahmood I’ve fields of yellow Rape cause him to blend in

It is do with contrast and until they invent a jacket that changes colour automatically every time your background changes there is no optimum colour

[tykeboy2003]

What might make a difference is having a rear view mirror and road sense and/or specific training.
The rear view mirror makes it easy to keep an eye out behind you, the road sense, particularly when backed by training can help you use that information.

I very much agree with this, I use my mirror all the time and am massively more aware of the traffic than if I relied only on looking behind when about to perform a manoeuvre. No different to driving a car really, who would drive without a mirror?

[TrevA]

What MJR said. Additionally have you really never seen yellow hi-viz squares (about person size) beside the road? They are quite common, surrounding speed signs, village signs, camera signs, hazard signs. Perhaps a little more attention to the road signage is needed.

Not round here - village signs are black type on a white background, with a black border. Camera hazard signs the same, speed limit signs black numbers on a white circle with a red border. The only signs with hi viz squares I've ever seen are the Cycle Event signs used for races. Perhaps it's different in Wales.

[mjr]

What MJR said. Additionally have you really never seen yellow hi-viz squares (about person size) beside the road? They are quite common, surrounding speed signs, village signs, camera signs, hazard signs. Perhaps a little more attention to the road signage is needed.

Not round here - village signs are black type on a white background, with a black border. Camera hazard signs the same, speed limit signs black numbers on a white circle with a red border. The only signs with hi viz squares I've ever seen are the Cycle Event signs used for races. Perhaps it's different in Wales.

I'll try to remember to take some pictures of the village signs and some others like the pedestrian crossing warning signs and speed limit repeaters. Most village signs except full-size speed limit signs and direction signs seem to have sprouted yellow squares when they've been replaced over the last few years. Of course, we like blue and gold on this side of Norfolk, but I think that putting some on every road sign is going a bit far!

[drossall]

I guess there's a difference here, depending on whether you are picturing one cyclist on an otherwise empty country road, in which case visibility of the individual is a factor, or a busy road situation, in which case the issue is overload of the observer's perception systems, and I stand by my statement that not everyone can be hi-vis at the same time. To be quite blunt about it, if a driver is giving 100% of his/her attention to the road, I can only get more of that attention by stealing it from someone else. Drivers are human beings and, even if they are concentrating, do not have unlimited capacity to see things.

Although today I was criticised for not wearing hi-vis on a clear, sunny winter's day. I was wearing a bright yellow jacket. I think that's a bit extreme.

[531colin]

I think dipped headlight on cars in rural places are good.

I think lights on cars on rural roads are a dangerous distraction for other road users and can be a contributory factor to the incidence of road rage.

Well I disagree with that.
Why should a car with well adjusted lights be a distraction from driving your own vehicle well?
It's just yet another vehicle,...................etc................

On a "blind summit" the properly dipped headlights of an oncoming car are sufficiently dazzling that I can be driving blind. OK its only for a fraction of a second, but its in a situation where its hard enough to drive completely safely at the best of times.
If you want to check this out, try the "Old Malton Road" from Stamford Bridge.

[thirdcrank]

My personal opposition to cyclists being expected to display lights in the daytime included a prolonged correspondence with the men from the ministry until they agreed that they were wrong when they advised that the lighting regs required cyclists to use lights, if fitted, in conditions of reduced visibility eg fog. (It's recorded in a thread somewhere on here.)

IMO, the introduction of daytime running lights (DRL's) for motor vehicles has changed things. I fear that the problem is greatest when a rider is in a queue of traffic, much of which will be displaying DRL's when a cyclist may be mistaken for a break in the queue by a driver looking for the slightest opportunity to emerge from a side junction. ie Broadly similar to the situation in the dark when a rider without a decent front light may be mistaken for a gap.

The other change is that unlike the farthing candle bike front lamps of years gone by, some current offerings seem bright enough to compete with car lamps. When DRL's were first being discussed, I remember some wise forum member predicting a lighting "arms race" and how right they were.

The reality is that we have DRL's and, on some cars an automatic light setting which turns on the headlamps at the first sign of gloom. I don't anticipate a change in this trend.