Should you have lights on during the day?

[[XAP]Bob]

I've got a see-sense light on the back and if I have it lit during the day people definitely behave differently around me - leave more room. I think it's because the strobing is a changeable sequence and that registers on drivers' brains whether they want it to or not.

So not actually a legal light in the UK

[nez]

You know what Bob, I really don't care. It just seems such a minor problem compared to close passes and tail-gating. I used to get fed up with people riding on the pavement up the hill here, but now I think, well if it protects them.

[PDQ Mobile]

There is also a difference betweem ‘daylight’ and ‘in and out of shadows’ which I think we can pretty much all agree is a ‘reduced visibilty’ condition.


I’ve had people think it was clear to overtake, or to drive on - even with lights on. Surely that means that it’s dangerous to have lights on?
The plural of anecdote isn’t data - when making a suggestion like DLRs we really ought to look at data... the motorbike data cited above is particularly interesting.

But "in and out of shadows" is very often exactly what real road conditions are like.
Blind junctions. Trees overhanging. All sorts of less than optimal stuff.
That's where lights can help.
Do you turn yours on and off?
I don't, but each to their own.

The motorcycle data is contradicted by other studies. Google.
Practically every motorcycle uses some sort of front light in rural N. Wales. Very wisely IMV.

[[XAP]Bob]

Really not - I can’t think of anywhere in my local area that has any significant amount of ‘in and out of shadows’
Blind junctions are pretty obviously not going to be helped by lights - they’re blind!

[PDQ Mobile]

Really not - I can’t think of anywhere in my local area that has any significant amount of ‘in and out of shadows’
Blind junctions are pretty obviously not going to be helped by lights - they’re blind!

Well perhaps that's part of our different opinion.
This is the land of shadows!! And fast roads.


As for blind well some are so genuinely blind there's a mirror. I use one most days. Then you would realize how useful dipped headlights on an approaching vehicle can be.
I rather feel your being pedantic about "blind", I meant it as a generic term for junctions with severely reduced lines of sight.
YVMV

[Rusty Rider]

A discussion has started in another topic which I feel deserves its own.

In my opinion lights on in the daytime has to be a good thing (as long as not stupidly bright). Someone against it is saying its training car drivers to look out for lights and not for cyclists.

I can see where they are coming from (no pun intended!). What's general thoughts?

I can't agree with them as I feel that its making excuses for bad driving. Many years ago when I took my RoSPA test with the examiner being a class A1 instructor (Police) he said that it wasn't a good idea yet now there are more accidents involving motorcyclists where the manufacturers have hard wired the lights on, ie there's no off switch, I think its one reason why my arm/wrist got broken.

[[XAP]Bob]

If your line of sight is reduced then visibility might be an issue, but not one a light can correct for...

The worst SMIDSY I’ve ever had I had a set of 2” wide, 6’ long, rainbow coloured kite streamers on a fishing whip, with one of those stupid soccer flags at drivers eye level...
Sort of flashing blue lights, and even that’s not certain, there is nothing you can do that will make people who aren’t actually looking at the road see you.

One thing that no one seems to have mentioned is that we are likely to overestimate the conspicuity of cycle lights because we are cyclists...

[PDQ Mobile]

Sort of flashing blue lights, and even that’s not certain, there is nothing you can do that will make people who aren’t actually looking at the road see you.

That is self evident.

But you can help someone who is half looking at the road to become aware.
Catch the eye.
I don't think I underestimate that lights will make me be seen on a bike.
I pretty much assume that until I have the visual cues. Eye contact etc.

[Cyril Haearn]

It is best NOT to make eye contact, keep them guessing
I find I can perceive things without looking at them maybe through peripheral vision, hearing, air pressure

[[XAP]Bob]

Sort of flashing blue lights, and even that’s not certain, there is nothing you can do that will make people who aren’t actually looking at the road see you.

That is self evident.

But you can help someone who is half looking at the road to become aware.
Catch the eye.
I don't think I underestimate that lights will make me be seen on a bike.
I pretty much assume that until I have the visual cues. Eye contact etc.

No, I think you overestimate the effect - not underestimate it.

The other thing you are doing is ignoring the societal effect of actions. The tragedy of the commons isn’t directly applicable, but it is easy to draw parallels with it.
Frankly I wish the CTC protests against compulsory lights at all had been successful in the early part of last century. It was, as they so accurately predicted, a slippery slope

[PDQ Mobile]

It is best NOT to make eye contact, keep them guessing
I find I can perceive things without looking at them maybe through peripheral vision, hearing, air pressure

Keep them guessing!
Like the 30 or 40% of vehicles that find it too much trouble to signal their intentions?
I have another level of road craft.
Though I can't say that it includes air pressure!

Eye contact is telling you something, not them

[PDQ Mobile]

No, I think you overestimate the effect - not underestimate it.

The other thing you are doing is ignoring the societal effect of actions. The tragedy of the commons isn’t directly applicable, but it is easy to draw parallels with it.
Frankly I wish the CTC protests against compulsory lights at all had been successful in the early part of last century. It was, as they so accurately predicted, a slippery slope

It's just about using sensible measures according road conditions ( and air pressure!)

Presumably the CTC campaign was at a time when LED lights were but a twinkle ( sorry) in their inventor's eye.
With low brightness dynamo lights that (mostly) went out when stopped and heavy battery lights with limited life. Things have changed.

I do not over or underestimate the effect but rather use what means I have at my disposal depending upon the prevailing condition.

[gaz]

Presumably the CTC campaign was at a time when LED lights were but a twinkle ( sorry) in their inventor's eye.

It would be true to say that the 1934 CTC campaign pre-dated LED lights. More on the subject here.

The wedge had a thin end, it's being hammered in.

[Samuel D]

Nice blog entry, gaz.

I agree with the conclusion there:

“It’s quite understandable that in the current environment you might choose to dress up like a roller-disco building site worker to ride to work, but that doesn’t diminish the fact that every time you do so you kick cycling and walking an inch further away from being the sustainable, accessible, scalable and—if we are to have any hope of avoiding an urban dystopia of pollution, disenfranchisement and misery—absolutely essential modes of transport that they are.”

… except that I still struggle to understand it. Aesthetic sense alone should preserve people from using flashing lamps and fluorescent jackets. The contemporary built environment is hideous enough without every moving thing being lit up like a pinball machine. Why does no-one in the UK care a whit about this? It extends to every aspect of life there. Each sodden suburb and grey city is awash in dayglo health and safety warnings about preposterously remote risks. The very road surface has reflectors. How did the nation that built Somerset House and the Jaguar E-Type lose its collective taste overnight? Why do people earnestly modify their environment and behaviour at a cost often greater than the realisation of the supposed hazard?

This DRL business reminds me of Benjamin Franklin’s quote: “Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

Hang onto your principles!

[gaz]

Nice blog entry, gaz.

Don't thank me, thank Bez.