Should you have lights on during the day?

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mjr
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Postby mjr » 2 Feb 2018, 12:39pm

pwa wrote:
mjr wrote:
pwa wrote:Any vehicle travelling along a footway at speed is almost certainly out of control and isn't going to respond to any precautions I take.

The footway drivers I see are definitely in control and just don't want to wait for the traffic turning right. They won't respond to any precautions because they're reckless and should be prevented from driving before they injure people. Although you disagree, I think the same is true of the ones who hit unlit road users on the carriageway.


I'd certainly not defend what that driver appears to be about to do, but I honestly never see that around here. Not even in the congested mess that is Cardiff. On the whole, around here, a pedestrian on the pavement is fairly safe. We all hear of exceptions to that, but mostly the footway is safe. The danger level ramps up when you move onto the tarmac designated for general traffic.

I'm surprised if pavement motoring doesn't happen anywhere in South Wales because it's pretty widespread nationally, almost being seen as normalised by custom. If I travel for 10 miles along pavemented rural/subsurban roads, I can be fairly sure of seeing at least one pavement driver at speed, and pavement driving is clearly widespread in town because often, in the words of baby bear, "and they're still there!" as pavement parkers.

There are also a lot of tyre "swooshes" onto and off of rural/suburban pavements in this sort of muddy winter weather. Are you sure you're just not noticing pavement motoring because it's now so commonplace?

Lots of them have daytime lights on, so you should be able to see them ;)

Also, much as I'd love it to be otherwise, IIRC it's hard to demonstrate the danger level ramping up, even for pedestrians walking in the carriageway - but that may be because pedestrians have been bullied off such routes.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Wanlock Dod
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Postby Wanlock Dod » 2 Feb 2018, 12:51pm

mjr wrote:...have been bullied off such routes.

The real travesty is that we are a culture that says this attitude is OK, and feels that providing an alternative is unreasonable.

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Postby [XAP]Bob » 2 Feb 2018, 3:46pm

Anything that aids being seen is a help. IMV.

Being seen is passive - the issue is not that a cyclist can’t be seen, but that motorists don’t give a fig.

There is nothing you can do that will help you be visible in daylight, because you already are.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

Samuel D
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Postby Samuel D » 2 Feb 2018, 4:59pm

Wanlock Dod wrote:
mjr wrote:...have been bullied off such routes.

The real travesty is that we are a culture that says this attitude is OK, and feels that providing an alternative is unreasonable.

On this BBC article about Amazon’s continuing growth, the highest rated reader comment is by ‘CeeOfGee’ and says this:

“Well what do you expect when councils charge you to spend your money in the local towns and they use excessive rates to drive shops away ?”

By which I presume is meant that parking is not free as is every driver’s right. We need a big cultural change about driving.

Ivorcadaver
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Postby Ivorcadaver » 2 Feb 2018, 9:45pm

Why not? It costs nothing if using rechargeable or dynamo. It's not going to make me less visible. I'd quite like to be seen out on the road.

Ellieb
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Postby Ellieb » 2 Feb 2018, 10:05pm

There is nothing you can do that will help you be visible in daylight, because you already are.

Yeabutt, there are things that can make you more conspicuous. This isn't about 'visibility' it is about 'conspicuity'. But I expect that in your heart of hearts you already knew that.
The cat is perfectly visible: I expect you saw it immediately.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/08/01/16/36C811FC00000578-3718371-image-a-12_1470066359661.jpg

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Cunobelin
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Postby Cunobelin » 2 Feb 2018, 11:06pm

pwa wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:I was in Fareham last night, and a pedestrian walked a few yards down the road posted a letter and then returned toothier house.

Why on earth were they not making themselves visible my wearing HiViz and carrying a light of some sort.


Presumably because they expected to remain on the footpath where the only danger of being run over comes from someone driving a mobility scooter too fast. I was out yesterday, walking a neighbour's dog for them, and another dog owner had a yellow hi-viz on their dog. I think it was on just to protect the dog drom the chill wind, but the fact that they chose a hi-viz jacket when they went shopping shows that the lady does see hi-viz as something she wants when walking on the lanes (with no footways) at night. Other dog owners buy those (to my mind) less effective LED dog collars.


There is no footpath, which is why they walked down the road.....


Then of course why stop at dogs, there are moves in the New Forest for Ponies not only to have compulsory HiViz, but also to be to be spray painted in reflective paint.

Mike Coper, a former Commoners’ Defence Association (CDA) Chairman, is supportive of spray painting the ponies in addition to the reflective collars many of them already wear.

He told the Daily Echo: “Anything that helps protect the animals and doesn’t do them any harm has got to be worth a go.

“Many of the ponies in the Forest are already wearing reflective collars. They do a very good job but they don’t stop all accidents.”

The current CDA chairman, Graham Ferris, said: “We are aware of the Dartmoor initiative and will be watching with interest to see how well it works in practice.

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Postby [XAP]Bob » 3 Feb 2018, 10:13am

Ellieb wrote:
There is nothing you can do that will help you be visible in daylight, because you already are.

Yeabutt, there are things that can make you more conspicuous. This isn't about 'visibility' it is about 'conspicuity'. But I expect that in your heart of hearts you already knew that.
The cat is perfectly visible: I expect you saw it immediately.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/08/01/16/36C811FC00000578-3718371-image-a-12_1470066359661.jpg


Sorry, straw man arguements about camouflage won’t cut it here.
Yes I saw the cat within a second - but then I knew I was looking for a cat.

There might be some benefit if you were wearing full camo gear, but we’re talking about normal clothes. I don’t find myself bumping into people on the street in daytime because people are visible - even if they are wearing a black suit, black shoes, black gloves...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

pwa
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Postby pwa » 3 Feb 2018, 10:21am

mjr wrote:
pwa wrote:
mjr wrote:The footway drivers I see are definitely in control and just don't want to wait for the traffic turning right. They won't respond to any precautions because they're reckless and should be prevented from driving before they injure people. Although you disagree, I think the same is true of the ones who hit unlit road users on the carriageway.


I'd certainly not defend what that driver appears to be about to do, but I honestly never see that around here. Not even in the congested mess that is Cardiff. On the whole, around here, a pedestrian on the pavement is fairly safe. We all hear of exceptions to that, but mostly the footway is safe. The danger level ramps up when you move onto the tarmac designated for general traffic.

I'm surprised if pavement motoring doesn't happen anywhere in South Wales because it's pretty widespread nationally, almost being seen as normalised by custom. If I travel for 10 miles along pavemented rural/subsurban roads, I can be fairly sure of seeing at least one pavement driver at speed, and pavement driving is clearly widespread in town because often, in the words of baby bear, "and they're still there!" as pavement parkers.

There are also a lot of tyre "swooshes" onto and off of rural/suburban pavements in this sort of muddy winter weather. Are you sure you're just not noticing pavement motoring because it's now so commonplace?

Lots of them have daytime lights on, so you should be able to see them ;)

Also, much as I'd love it to be otherwise, IIRC it's hard to demonstrate the danger level ramping up, even for pedestrians walking in the carriageway - but that may be because pedestrians have been bullied off such routes.


We do have pavement parking, which he have discussed before, and we do have two wheels on the pavement occasionlly on narrow streets to allow vehicles to pass in difficult situations. I admit to doing it last night when I encountered a bus coming the other way on a tight, twisty lane. Normally I would have reversed to a wider bit of road but I had a van behind me and there was more traffic behind that, and the bus was in no position to go back, so I carefully put two wheels on the pedestrian-free pavement to my left to free things up. I did think about you, with a wry smile, as I did it. If I hadn't we would have still been there. But those things are, or ought to be, 1mph driving with extreme caution, hardly relevant to a discussion about lights.

What I haven't seen is drivers using a pavement as an inside lane to get past stationary traffic going in their direction. Often, of course, obstacles like lamp posts make it impossible, but even where it is possible I've not seen it. I do accept that you have seen it.

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Cunobelin
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Postby Cunobelin » 3 Feb 2018, 10:29am

[XAP]Bob wrote:
Ellieb wrote:
There is nothing you can do that will help you be visible in daylight, because you already are.

Yeabutt, there are things that can make you more conspicuous. This isn't about 'visibility' it is about 'conspicuity'. But I expect that in your heart of hearts you already knew that.
The cat is perfectly visible: I expect you saw it immediately.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/08/01/16/36C811FC00000578-3718371-image-a-12_1470066359661.jpg


Sorry, straw man arguements about camouflage won’t cut it here.
Yes I saw the cat within a second - but then I knew I was looking for a cat.

There might be some benefit if you were wearing full camo gear, but we’re talking about normal clothes. I don’t find myself bumping into people on the street in daytime because people are visible - even if they are wearing a black suit, black shoes, black gloves...



Actually Camouflage is a real question.....


Why don't military towns like Aldershot, Catterick, Portsmouth and others where large numbers cycle to work wearing camouflage not have higher accident rates.



Surely if there is an "obvious" argument that being visible reduces accidents, then it is equally likely that being "invisible" should increase the rate

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Postby [XAP]Bob » 3 Feb 2018, 10:30am

Ivorcadaver wrote:Why not? It costs nothing if using rechargeable or dynamo. It's not going to make me less visible. I'd quite like to be seen out on the road.


costs you nothing if dynamo, does cost (financially and directly) in rechargeable world.
More significant cost is external - it’s marking cycling as a ‘specialist kit’ world of activity, not the jump on and ride to the shops activity that would benefit so many.

I agree that lights aren’t going to make you *less* visible (assuming they aren’t dazzling) but that’s a race which absolutely isn’t necessary, and has other effects on society as a whole...

Tinkering at the edges of what *looks* like a safety intervention is almost never a good thing - because it distracts from conversations about things that could actually help...
People are visible during the day - I find it really bizarre that people are suggesting that they are not.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

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Cunobelin
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Postby Cunobelin » 3 Feb 2018, 10:33am

pwa wrote:
mjr wrote:
pwa wrote:
I'd certainly not defend what that driver appears to be about to do, but I honestly never see that around here. Not even in the congested mess that is Cardiff. On the whole, around here, a pedestrian on the pavement is fairly safe. We all hear of exceptions to that, but mostly the footway is safe. The danger level ramps up when you move onto the tarmac designated for general traffic.

I'm surprised if pavement motoring doesn't happen anywhere in South Wales because it's pretty widespread nationally, almost being seen as normalised by custom. If I travel for 10 miles along pavemented rural/subsurban roads, I can be fairly sure of seeing at least one pavement driver at speed, and pavement driving is clearly widespread in town because often, in the words of baby bear, "and they're still there!" as pavement parkers.

There are also a lot of tyre "swooshes" onto and off of rural/suburban pavements in this sort of muddy winter weather. Are you sure you're just not noticing pavement motoring because it's now so commonplace?

Lots of them have daytime lights on, so you should be able to see them ;)

Also, much as I'd love it to be otherwise, IIRC it's hard to demonstrate the danger level ramping up, even for pedestrians walking in the carriageway - but that may be because pedestrians have been bullied off such routes.


We do have pavement parking, which he have discussed before, and we do have two wheels on the pavement occasionlly on narrow streets to allow vehicles to pass in difficult situations. I admit to doing it last night when I encountered a bus coming the other way on a tight, twisty lane. Normally I would have reversed to a wider bit of road but I had a van behind me and there was more traffic behind that, and the bus was in no position to go back, so I carefully put two wheels on the pedestrian-free pavement to my left to free things up. I did think about you, with a wry smile, as I did it. If I hadn't we would have still been there. But those things are, or ought to be, 1mph driving with extreme caution, hardly relevant to a discussion about lights.

What I haven't seen is drivers using a pavement as an inside lane to get past stationary traffic going in their direction. Often, of course, obstacles like lamp posts make it impossible, but even where it is possible I've not seen it. I do accept that you have seen it.



With a wife who is a wheelchair user it always annoys me that being considerate to road users at the expense of those who need to use the pavement to park on is in anyway acceptable!

To go to our local shops often involves sectors to find a dropped kerb and then a trip along a narrowed road to another dripped kerb

.. and the individual causing the obstruction claims they are being "considerate"

pwa
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Postby pwa » 3 Feb 2018, 10:46am

Cunobelin wrote:
pwa wrote:
mjr wrote:I'm surprised if pavement motoring doesn't happen anywhere in South Wales because it's pretty widespread nationally, almost being seen as normalised by custom. If I travel for 10 miles along pavemented rural/subsurban roads, I can be fairly sure of seeing at least one pavement driver at speed, and pavement driving is clearly widespread in town because often, in the words of baby bear, "and they're still there!" as pavement parkers.

There are also a lot of tyre "swooshes" onto and off of rural/suburban pavements in this sort of muddy winter weather. Are you sure you're just not noticing pavement motoring because it's now so commonplace?

Lots of them have daytime lights on, so you should be able to see them ;)

Also, much as I'd love it to be otherwise, IIRC it's hard to demonstrate the danger level ramping up, even for pedestrians walking in the carriageway - but that may be because pedestrians have been bullied off such routes.


We do have pavement parking, which he have discussed before, and we do have two wheels on the pavement occasionlly on narrow streets to allow vehicles to pass in difficult situations. I admit to doing it last night when I encountered a bus coming the other way on a tight, twisty lane. Normally I would have reversed to a wider bit of road but I had a van behind me and there was more traffic behind that, and the bus was in no position to go back, so I carefully put two wheels on the pedestrian-free pavement to my left to free things up. I did think about you, with a wry smile, as I did it. If I hadn't we would have still been there. But those things are, or ought to be, 1mph driving with extreme caution, hardly relevant to a discussion about lights.

What I haven't seen is drivers using a pavement as an inside lane to get past stationary traffic going in their direction. Often, of course, obstacles like lamp posts make it impossible, but even where it is possible I've not seen it. I do accept that you have seen it.



With a wife who is a wheelchair user it always annoys me that being considerate to road users at the expense of those who need to use the pavement to park on is in anyway acceptable!

To go to our local shops often involves sectors to find a dropped kerb and then a trip along a narrowed road to another dripped kerb

.. and the individual causing the obstruction claims they are being "considerate"


Pavement parking is a bit irrelevant to this particular thread, but I agree with the point that I think you are making, which is that parking that obstructs legitimate pavement use is unacceptable.

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Postby [XAP]Bob » 3 Feb 2018, 10:49am

I’d be rather tempted where I live to use a particular stretch of main road. Nice set of lights to allow me to stop the traffic and join the road, then walk down the middle of the carriageway until past the parked cars before rejoining the pavement a hundred yards or so later. Would drive the motorists apoplectic with rage (hell one was enraged yesterday at mybtrmerity to cycle at the speed of the traffic).
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.

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Cunobelin
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Re: Should you have lights on during the day?

Postby Cunobelin » 3 Feb 2018, 11:00am

pwa wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
pwa wrote:
We do have pavement parking, which he have discussed before, and we do have two wheels on the pavement occasionlly on narrow streets to allow vehicles to pass in difficult situations. I admit to doing it last night when I encountered a bus coming the other way on a tight, twisty lane. Normally I would have reversed to a wider bit of road but I had a van behind me and there was more traffic behind that, and the bus was in no position to go back, so I carefully put two wheels on the pedestrian-free pavement to my left to free things up. I did think about you, with a wry smile, as I did it. If I hadn't we would have still been there. But those things are, or ought to be, 1mph driving with extreme caution, hardly relevant to a discussion about lights.

What I haven't seen is drivers using a pavement as an inside lane to get past stationary traffic going in their direction. Often, of course, obstacles like lamp posts make it impossible, but even where it is possible I've not seen it. I do accept that you have seen it.



With a wife who is a wheelchair user it always annoys me that being considerate to road users at the expense of those who need to use the pavement to park on is in anyway acceptable!

To go to our local shops often involves sectors to find a dropped kerb and then a trip along a narrowed road to another dripped kerb

.. and the individual causing the obstruction claims they are being "considerate"


Pavement parking is a bit irrelevant to this particular thread, but I agree with the point that I think you are making, which is that parking that obstructs legitimate pavement use is unacceptable.



A large proportion of pavement driving is to park illegally, and a major cause if pedestrians using the roadway is illegal parking.

The argument was that pedestrians do not need HiViz because they are "safe" on the pavement - demonstrably untrue