Cycle ways ( in London ) are a waste of Space?

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reohn2
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Re: Cycle ways ( in London ) are a waste of Space?

Post by reohn2 »

irc wrote:Depends on location. A plan to build an on road segregated facility in my area was rejected. Rightly so in my opinion. The road is currently safe to cycle. The new facility would have reduced road capacity in a place where cyclists are 1% of users.

But that 1% could increase by a lot if people felt safe on good cycling infrastructure,it would also have the potential to cut down on pollution and people may actually travel quicker and healthier.
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Stevek76
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Re: Cycle ways ( in London ) are a waste of Space?

Post by Stevek76 »

Quite, and a reduction in 'road capacity', or more accurately, private motor-vehicle capacity, isn't necessarily a bad thing anyway depending on location and impacts. E.g. if a good proportion of the trips on that road are shorter distance then the extra delay + a safe facility might be the kick they need to get on a bike. And that one less car trip now doesn't add delay up and downstream of that road on the rest of its trip.
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Re: Cycle ways ( in London ) are a waste of Space?

Post by Vorpal »

pwa wrote:I'm totally ignorant on the subject of cycling in London.

How far do London commuters travel to get to work? Surely it must be slower than cycle commuting in less congested places.


I think that most London commuters expect to take an hour or so getting to and from work. I used to know quite a few people who commuted to and from or within London. I still keep in touch with a few.

Of my friends working in London, several live in Essex. Chelmsford, Witham, Colchester. One lives in Manningtree. They live near a station and work near a station and commute a little over an hour each way (cycling - train - walking to work and the reverse from work). The further out, the longer it takes. In theory they can do it in approximately an hour, at least from Colchester inwards. In practice, there are a day or two each week that it takes rather longer. I have a couple of friends who live within the M25, and cycle. One lives 3 miles from work (Greenford area), and the other lives in Walthamstow and commutes to Bethnal Geen area.

The one who lives 3 miles from work is going opposite traffic. He hasn't told me what it's like, but I expect if it took him long, he'd drive. The one who goes to Bethnal Green takes just under an hour from what she says.
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Re: Cycle ways ( in London ) are a waste of Space?

Post by Vorpal »

irc wrote:Depends on location. A plan to build an on road segregated facility in my area was rejected. Rightly so in my opinion. The road is currently safe to cycle. The new facility would have reduced road capacity in a place where cyclists are 1% of users.

This argument has been used for yonks to avoid building cycle-friendly infrastructure.
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jgurney
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Re: Cycle ways ( in London ) are a waste of Space?

Post by jgurney »

Vorpal wrote:
irc wrote:A plan to build an on road segregated facility in my area was rejected. Rightly so in my opinion. The road is currently safe to cycle.

This argument has been used for yonks to avoid building cycle-friendly infrastructure.


But what is the point of building cycle infrastructure if that particular road is already safe to cycle on? It wastes resources which could go into more useful cycle facilities where they are needed.

I suspect putting cycle facilities in roads that don't need it also helps give motorists the idea that they are entitled to cyclist-free carriageways, rather then accepting that most roads will contain some cyclists and that separate facilities will only be found occasionally (as realistically will be the case as no-one is planning to duplicate the entire carriageway network with cycle paths).
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mjr
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Re: Cycle ways ( in London ) are a waste of Space?

Post by mjr »

jgurney wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
irc wrote:A plan to build an on road segregated facility in my area was rejected. Rightly so in my opinion. The road is currently safe to cycle.

This argument has been used for yonks to avoid building cycle-friendly infrastructure.


But what is the point of building cycle infrastructure if that particular road is already safe to cycle on? It wastes resources which could go into more useful cycle facilities where they are needed.

Who gets to judge what is "already safe to cycle on"? Must cyclists be injured before you would allow our taxes to be spent providing nicer space for cycling?

I wouldn't mind if we prioritised "more useful" but we really don't collect the data to assess what of the existing infrastructure is useful and most of the country is collecting less and less data about cycling every year at the moment, decommissioning cycle counters and everything else that's viewed as non-essential expense to be cut during the decade plus of austerity.

jgurney wrote:I suspect putting cycle facilities in roads that don't need it also helps give motorists the idea that they are entitled to cyclist-free carriageways,

:lol: Motorists already believe that they are entitled to cyclist-free carriageways! They also believe that the carriageways should be free of other motorists, too! You can tell this by the outpouring of rage whenever there's even modest congestion impeding their God-given right to drive at the advertised speed limit for the entire journey...
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reohn2
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Re: Cycle ways ( in London ) are a waste of Space?

Post by reohn2 »

jgurney wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
irc wrote:A plan to build an on road segregated facility in my area was rejected. Rightly so in my opinion. The road is currently safe to cycle.

This argument has been used for yonks to avoid building cycle-friendly infrastructure.


But what is the point of building cycle infrastructure if that particular road is already safe to cycle on? It wastes resources which could go into more useful cycle facilities where they are needed.

I suspect putting cycle facilities in roads that don't need it also helps give motorists the idea that they are entitled to cyclist-free carriageways, rather then accepting that most roads will contain some cyclists and that separate facilities will only be found occasionally (as realistically will be the case as no-one is planning to duplicate the entire carriageway network with cycle paths).

By what criteria are certain roads deemed safe?
If new or timid cyclists and potential cyclists think it unsafe then cycling numbers will remain static to those who are willing to take the risk,whether that risk is percieved or actual.

It comes down to what society wants to achieve,does it wish to carry on as is, or change things for the better for he whole,sometimes to achieve that change needs to be radical.
The problem in the UK,like many developed countries around the world,the default transport has become the private car to such an exetent in many ways the tail is wagging the dog,pollution of the air and noise to the detriment of people's health and wellbing,clogged up streets with parked vehicles and roads with too much traffic on the move.Our answer to the problem so far has been to build more roads and so far it hasn't worked because the roads we've built demand has outstripped supply,we can carry on or have a rethink,like some countries around the world are doing.
Motoring is a two edged sword,in large towns and cities it's becoming a burden to such an extent it's damaging health and wellbeing,there are other cheaper and healthier ways to move people around those towns and cities but its a radical step for the UK to make.

My 2d's worth
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Re: Cycle ways ( in London ) are a waste of Space?

Post by Vorpal »

If cyclists are 1% of users, that might be an indication that some users don't find it safe to cycle on.
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Re: Cycle ways ( in London ) are a waste of Space?

Post by jgurney »

mjr wrote:
jgurney wrote:
But what is the point of building cycle infrastructure if that particular road is already safe to cycle on? It wastes resources which could go into more useful cycle facilities...


I wouldn't mind if we prioritised "more useful"..


Then I think we agree.
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Re: Cycle ways ( in London ) are a waste of Space?

Post by jgurney »

reohn2 wrote:
jgurney wrote:But what is the point of building cycle infrastructure if that particular road is already safe to cycle on? It wastes resources which could go into more useful cycle facilities where they are needed.


By what criteria are certain roads deemed safe?


mrj wrote:Who gets to judge what is "already safe to cycle on"?


Plenty of posters here seem to feel qualified to comment on the safety of various roads they know. It can't be beyond the wit of cyclistkind to establish an at least rough-and-ready view of the relative safety of various roads in a given area. A poll of local cyclists could probably give a reasonable indication, if one was wanted. There may well be other methods. Sometimes hazards are pretty self-evident, such as fast multi-lane junctions where a lot of high-speed lane changing occurs.
reohn2
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Re: Cycle ways ( in London ) are a waste of Space?

Post by reohn2 »

jgurney wrote:Plenty of posters here seem to feel qualified to comment on the safety of various roads they know. It can't be beyond the wit of cyclistkind to establish an at least rough-and-ready view of the relative safety of various roads in a given area. A poll of local cyclists could probably give a reasonable indication, if one was wanted. There may well be other methods. Sometimes hazards are pretty self-evident, such as fast multi-lane junctions where a lot of high-speed lane changing occurs.

All roads are safe.
Its drivers in charge of 1 tonne + of vehicle that aren't,until the law is upheld and enforced that will remain so,and because of that cyclists don't feel safe when sharing the roads with busy traffic especially at junctions.
That's the problem and as a result less people cycle bcause they feel safer in a car,cars are more convenient because no one is making them inconvenient and no one is enforcing the law particularly when cars collide with cyclists.
IMO cyclists in the UK are poorly provided in favour of cars,if things are to change for the better that status quo has to change.
Last edited by reohn2 on 28 Feb 2018, 8:29am, edited 1 time in total.
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Phil Fouracre
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Re: Cycle ways ( in London ) are a waste of Space?

Post by Phil Fouracre »

reohn2 wrote:
jgurney wrote:Plenty of posters here seem to feel qualified to comment on the safety of various roads they know. It can't be beyond the wit of cyclistkind to establish an at least rough-and-ready view of the relative safety of various roads in a given area. A poll of local cyclists could probably give a reasonable indication, if one was wanted. There may well be other methods. Sometimes hazards are pretty self-evident, such as fast multi-lane junctions where a lot of high-speed lane changing occurs.

All roads are safe.
Its drivers in charge of 1 tonne + of vehicle that aren't until the law is upheld and enforced that will remain so,and becase of that cyclists don't feel safe when sharing the roads with busy traffic especiall at junctions.
That's the problem and as a result less people cycle bcause they feel safer in a car,cars are more convenient because no one is making them inconvenient and no one is enforcing the law particularly when cars collide with cyclists.
IMO cyclists in the UK are poorly povided in favour of cars,if things are to change for the better that status quo has to change.


Perfectly sums it up :-(
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Wanlock Dod
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Re: Cycle ways ( in London ) are a waste of Space?

Post by Wanlock Dod »

jgurney wrote:...A poll of local cyclists could probably give a reasonable indication, if one was wanted...

Surely asking the only people that cycle, in a society where the vast majority are too scared to cycle, is going to get a rather skewed perspective.
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Re: Cycle ways ( in London ) are a waste of Space?

Post by mjr »

Wanlock Dod wrote:
jgurney wrote:...A poll of local cyclists could probably give a reasonable indication, if one was wanted...

Surely asking the only people that cycle, in a society where the vast majority are too scared to cycle, is going to get a rather skewed perspective.

Indeed. We also have various tools for assessing routes, such as the old cycling audits whose name I can't remember, TfL's Cycling Level of Service, Wales's Active Travel Audits, CycleNation's Cycling Environment Assessment Tool... but I rather suspect that most of them would support building a cycleway on the road in Glasgow that irc mentions.

Another part of the problem is that there does seem to be a "safety in numbers" effect, but one of the biggest influences on the numbers is whether there's subjective safety or a perception of safety, more than objective safety.
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reohn2
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Re: Cycle ways ( in London ) are a waste of Space?

Post by reohn2 »

There's very good chance if you asked 100 people on 99% of city centre roads if they'd cycle on it and if not why not,the overwhelming answer would no,because they wouldn't think it safe to do so.
Ask them the same question but with a fully segregated bike path/road and you'd get a much favourable response.
Last edited by reohn2 on 28 Feb 2018, 6:43pm, edited 1 time in total.
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