Conwy driver jailed for head-on crash with cyclist

[Cyril Haearn]

7 Key Points

Press-on-it is a dangerous mental state that can affect even the best and most experienced operators.
Many accidents are caused, or suspected to be caused or contributed to by press-on-itis.
Unreasonable pressure to get to the destination, whether self-generated or externally-imposed, can cause individuals to decide to continue to their planned destination despite conditions being unsuitable to do so.
Company policies must truly place safety first and reward safe decision making.
..
.. .

Yes, but what should I do, practically, in real life?

I disagree slightly, I do NOT want to be rewarded for correct behaviour, I find that perverse
I want those who break the law to be punished
I am thinking of traffic crime
Not sure whether H&S at work is different, I think not

[Barks]

Ok, we are all different and many people have no real understanding of the risks that they are taking in their lives and this is compounded by many having a overly strong sense of their own self importance compared to others. I am sure that the driver in this incident is full of remorse and will probably never drive when tired again. Same for most using their phones or eating and drinking, playing with the Sat nav, edsging ip the speed because they are late for something and then BANG something unexpected happens. But all of these people didn’t think it would happen to them. That is why effective enforcement and public knowledge that enforcement is effective is so important - take that away and the only recourse is massively punitive punishment again widely publicised. We appear to have little of either of these. Driving a car is simply the most risky thing most people do in their lives but the big problem in my view is that so many feel invulnerable when driving their car. So they take more risk, but, in doing so they place anyone outside of their car/truck at more risk without feeling at risk themselves. So a combination, make cars more dangerous for the driver, have better enforcement and stronger legal recourse and we may get an improvement. Personally I shed no tears for a driver who careers off the road and dies on their own, it’s one less to hurt others in the future, but so often it’s the innocent parties, either in the car or outside that pay the price.

Apologies for the brain dump - respect others and you will make the right decision.

[thirdcrank]

You could say the same about Audax / Sportive events.

I agree,though the results of cycling whilst tired and fatigued is less likely to cause danger to others,it's not without possibility.

I'm thinking more of getting in the car after the event. See story upthread.

There's a difference between being physically tired and suffering from insufficient sleep, although they must sometims occur together.

Probably the biggest / worst example of a lack of sleep leading to the driver of a relatively small vehicle causing a huge crash killing a lot of people was Gary Hart in the Great Heck disaster.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Heck_rail_crash

In spite of a lot of prosecution evidence, including experts including IIRC one brought specially from the US, there were those who argued he had been made a scapegoat.

IIRC, that was the first time such evidence about the effects of a lack of sleep were widely published and having been close to being run over myself by the driver of a lorry who fell asleep, it's something I take seriously. Not long after the Great Heck crash, an article was published in the CTC mag about LEL in which the logical interpretation of the opening paragraph was that the author had arrived at the start having had too much to drink and not enough sleep. There was more about the effects of riding when short of sleep with references to riders in the event falling off etc. (Can't remember the details now.) I wrote a letter to Dan the Editor Man which ruffled some feathers. I was wrong about one thing in that I predicted defence lawyers might latch on the the fact that a lot of riders become tired covering big distances and suggest that they had been short of sleep, which is not the same thing.

Interest in the effects of a lack of sleep on driving has subsided although in the modern economy there must be plenty of it about. I think one effect is that judgment decreases, so a driver may take a poor decision to press on, as has been suggested by others.

[Cyril Haearn]

Are physical and mental tiredness closely linked?

I think PBP should be banned, the rules for working hours should be applied to leisure and sport

[reohn2]

.......Historically, the reason most prosecutions are conducted in the name of The Crown is that it's the public interest which counts rather than individual attitudes, forgiveness or desire for retribution.

That's where I'm struggling understanding how a prison sentence is in the public interest in this case(and some others IMO).
The defendant is clearly of previous good character and an asset to the community by all accounts,so I can't see that locking him up for 12months(6months with good conduct) serves the public in any way,other than it costing the public purse a bin full of money and leaving him possibly jobless.
Whilst the victim recovers and suffers possible monetary hardshp on top of the physical hardship sustained,I realise he'll be compensated by the driver'sinsurance but shouldn't the driver be responsible for at least some of that financial payment if only paying back some to the insurance company rather than languishing in prison for however long.

[thirdcrank]

I think one of the public interests is deterrence. That may not work when somebody's judgment is poor of course, but I suppose the idea is that they may get the message at an earlier stage. Self-inflicted drunkenness is similar and the law doesn't accept it as any sort of mitigation or defence.

[reohn2]

I think one of the public interests is deterrence. That may not work when somebody's judgment is poor of course, but I suppose the idea is that they may get the message at an earlier stage. Self-inflicted drunkenness is similar and the law doesn't accept it as any sort of mitigation or defence.

Real financial hardship with the money going to the victim and or his family would be a good and effective deterrence in this case.
Other cases may be treated differently,such as repeat offenders as those driving on our roads with horrendously high points counts on their licences and who's respect for the law and safety of others over long periods of time is practically nil.
Where is the deterrence for them?

[thirdcrank]

Until quite recently, I've never taken much interest in sentencing. I'm not much of a supporter of prison, though. I'm certainly not into trying to defend one disposal against another. I can usually point to the relevant guidelines and that's it. The days of judges making it up as they went along are largely history and I suspect the judge in this case followed the guidelines closely. We'll know if there's an appeal against sentence which makes it into the media.

[horizon]

I think one of the public interests is deterrence.

Deterrence (as you know) is one of the four roles of prison (the others being retribution, education and reform, safety of the public and I would add back up for other penalties). Driving while tired on the verge of sleep is endemic and socially acceptable. This sentence will act as a deterrent and, if you'll excuse the pun, a wake up call to those who think that driving without sufficient sleep is OK.

I think the sentence was fair as it involved serious injury and very clear evidence of risk taking. But, like reohn2, I would have preferred to see a very long ban, community service and some form of restorative action. I think the driver would have taken all three seriously.

[Bonefishblues]

I think one of the public interests is deterrence.

Deterrence (as you know) is one of the four roles of prison (the others being retribution, education and reform, safety of the public and I would add back up for other penalties). Driving while tired on the verge of sleep is endemic and socially acceptable. This sentence will act as a deterrent and, if you'll excuse the pun, a wake up call to those who think that driving without sufficient sleep is OK.

I think the sentence was fair as it involved serious injury and very clear evidence of risk taking. But, like reohn2, I would have preferred to see a very long ban, community service and some form of restorative action. I think the driver would have taken all three seriously.

How do you know that?

[horizon]

How do you know that?

Because I thought it was generally accepted to be the case. If you think that isn't the case, I'd be interested to hear more.

I thought I read somewhere that falling asleep at the wheel was the biggest cause of accidents and worse than drink driving but I could be wrong.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/southwes ... heel.shtml

http://www.brake.org.uk/rsw/15-facts-a- ... -tiredness

[Vorpal]

http://think.direct.gov.uk/fatigue.html

Research suggests that almost 20% of accidents on major roads are sleep-related
Sleep-related accidents are more likely than others to result in a fatality or serious injury

[Bonefishblues]

How do you know that?

Because I thought it was generally accepted to be the case. If you think that isn't the case, I'd be interested to hear more.

I thought I read somewhere that falling asleep at the wheel was the biggest cause of accidents and worse than drink driving but I could be wrong.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/southwes ... heel.shtml

http://www.brake.org.uk/rsw/15-facts-a- ... -tiredness

I don't know. That is why I asked a question.

[Cyril Haearn]

Until quite recently, I've never taken much interest in sentencing. I'm not much of a supporter of prison, though. I'm certainly not into trying to defend one disposal against another. I can usually point to the relevant guidelines and that's it. The days of judges making it up as they went along are largely history and I suspect the judge in this case followed the guidelines closely. We'll know if there's an appeal against sentence which makes it into the media.

Do you, the police, the judiciary have a opinions about the suggest that those obeying the law should be rewarded?
Has it been tried?

[Username]

I think that's exactly how the Court saw it.

I've been there in my younger years. The difference was I did pull off the M40 and found somewhere to take a tiny nap because I was lucky enough to recognise the danger, having had a couple of micro-sleeps, which fortunately I had woken up from (with that exact expression, I suspect). I had however driven home tired many, many times previously, and indeed since.

Have you considered sorting yourself out?

I'm assuming that you have some advice to offer? How do you avoid driving when tired?

Easy, don't get in a car and drive it.