Cyclists ignoring traffic lights

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
drossall
Posts: 4328
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 10:01pm
Location: North Hertfordshire

Re: Cyclists ignoring traffic lights

Postby drossall » 4 Feb 2019, 11:19pm

I think there's a problem because cyclists are required by law to obey lights, whereas pedestrians aren't. Whilst I understand motivations for doing it, if you, as a cyclist, give yourself an exemption from road law, you simply must accept that everyone else on the road has the same right. Otherwise you're claiming some kind of special exemption that has no basis in law.

On the whole, when you've no cage to protect you, that seems a risky way to proceed.

User avatar
mjr
Posts: 11759
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Cyclists ignoring traffic lights

Postby mjr » 4 Feb 2019, 11:35pm

Ryan1967 wrote:I never jump traffic lights when cycling- if you cant do it in a car due to safety why should we do it on a bike- i have had first hand experience of when i was on my bike waiting at a red light and another men completely ignored it and as he skipped it a car came across from the other side and hit him clean off!, - so never expect it to be safe even if it looks it!

You still have to look, even if your light is green. Far too many motorists jump red to be safe otherwise!
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

User avatar
mjr
Posts: 11759
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Cyclists ignoring traffic lights

Postby mjr » 4 Feb 2019, 11:37pm

robing wrote:
Denny wrote:If it's safe to do so, what is the problem : :D

None whatsoever. No different from a pedestrian crossing the road at a pedestrian crossing on red if there is no traffic.

Actually, that is different in law. Neither pedestrian nor cyclist crossing between footways or cycleways at puffin/toucan/etc is committing any offence. A cycle crossing a stop line at a red carriageway or cycleway junction light is.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

robing
Posts: 926
Joined: 7 Sep 2014, 9:11am

Re: Cyclists ignoring traffic lights

Postby robing » 5 Feb 2019, 7:54am

mjr wrote:
robing wrote:
Denny wrote:If it's safe to do so, what is the problem : :D

None whatsoever. No different from a pedestrian crossing the road at a pedestrian crossing on red if there is no traffic.

Actually, that is different in law. Neither pedestrian nor cyclist crossing between footways or cycleways at puffin/toucan/etc is committing any offence. A cycle crossing a stop line at a red carriageway or cycleway junction light is.


How about comparing it to turning right on red in the USA? That is allowed under certain circumstances.

drossall
Posts: 4328
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 10:01pm
Location: North Hertfordshire

Re: Cyclists ignoring traffic lights

Postby drossall » 5 Feb 2019, 8:08am

There may be a very good case for allowing turning left here on red. However, it's not allowed at present. The point is that we depend on everyone else obeying the rules, even when they are inconvenient, and cyclists have more to lose than most if people won't do that. So for cyclists to behave as though rules are optional things is a lack of self-interest, quite apart from any other consideration.

pwa
Posts: 8781
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Cyclists ignoring traffic lights

Postby pwa » 5 Feb 2019, 8:47am

drossall wrote:There may be a very good case for allowing turning left here on red. However, it's not allowed at present. The point is that we depend on everyone else obeying the rules, even when they are inconvenient, and cyclists have more to lose than most if people won't do that. So for cyclists to behave as though rules are optional things is a lack of self-interest, quite apart from any other consideration.

That's it. If we want other road users to stick to rules and standards (as we do) we have to promote that attitude by appearing to do the same.

User avatar
mjr
Posts: 11759
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Cyclists ignoring traffic lights

Postby mjr » 5 Feb 2019, 8:53am

pwa wrote:
drossall wrote:There may be a very good case for allowing turning left here on red. However, it's not allowed at present. The point is that we depend on everyone else obeying the rules, even when they are inconvenient, and cyclists have more to lose than most if people won't do that. So for cyclists to behave as though rules are optional things is a lack of self-interest, quite apart from any other consideration.

That's it. If we want other road users to stick to rules and standards (as we do) we have to promote that attitude by appearing to do the same.

No, we don't. We will never get all road users to obey laws voluntarily and so it's an unreasonable condition to put on compliance. What we have to do is push for more enforcement and that it be proportionate.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

pwa
Posts: 8781
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Cyclists ignoring traffic lights

Postby pwa » 5 Feb 2019, 9:00am

mjr wrote:
pwa wrote:
drossall wrote:There may be a very good case for allowing turning left here on red. However, it's not allowed at present. The point is that we depend on everyone else obeying the rules, even when they are inconvenient, and cyclists have more to lose than most if people won't do that. So for cyclists to behave as though rules are optional things is a lack of self-interest, quite apart from any other consideration.

That's it. If we want other road users to stick to rules and standards (as we do) we have to promote that attitude by appearing to do the same.

No, we don't. We will never get all road users to obey laws voluntarily and so it's an unreasonable condition to put on compliance. What we have to do is push for more enforcement and that it be proportionate.

"Bloody cyclists think the laws don't apply". Ever heard that one? If you want to promote contempt for cyclists, carry on, go through those red lights. But it is not doing the rest of us any favours.

thirdcrank
Posts: 27837
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Cyclists ignoring traffic lights

Postby thirdcrank » 5 Feb 2019, 9:06am

mjr wrote: ... No, we don't. We will never get all road users to obey laws voluntarily and so it's an unreasonable condition to put on compliance. What we have to do is push for more enforcement and that it be proportionate.


That's excellent, but some may see it as code for ignoring offences committed by cyclists.

User avatar
mjr
Posts: 11759
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Cyclists ignoring traffic lights

Postby mjr » 5 Feb 2019, 9:09am

pwa wrote:
mjr wrote:
pwa wrote:That's it. If we want other road users to stick to rules and standards (as we do) we have to promote that attitude by appearing to do the same.

No, we don't. We will never get all road users to obey laws voluntarily and so it's an unreasonable condition to put on compliance. What we have to do is push for more enforcement and that it be proportionate.

"Bloody cyclists think the laws don't apply". Ever heard that one? If you want to promote contempt for cyclists, carry on, go through those red lights. But it is not doing the rest of us any favours.

I don't go through the red lights but we're going to keep hearing that regardless of what I do. It's an excuse and a tool to keep some cyclists insulting other cyclists instead of the killers. Why don't we hear it about motorists despite them being much bloodier?
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

pwa
Posts: 8781
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Cyclists ignoring traffic lights

Postby pwa » 5 Feb 2019, 9:19am

mjr wrote:I don't go through the red lights but we're going to keep hearing that regardless of what I do. It's an excuse and a tool to keep some cyclists insulting other cyclists instead of the killers. Why don't we hear it about motorists despite them being much bloodier?

We do hear it about motorists. I haven't bothered with this thread recently because it isn't an issue high on my list of concerns.

And it shouldn't be high on anyone's list of concerns. But cyclists jumping red lights looks bad. It is usually done when other road users are sat there with nothing to do except watch other road users. It is bad PR. And PR matters. It shapes attitudes. How things look matters.

User avatar
mjr
Posts: 11759
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Cyclists ignoring traffic lights

Postby mjr » 5 Feb 2019, 9:25am

But it's an excuse. We can no more stop all cyclists riding past red than all motorists, so we should neutralise this bad PR instead of fanning the flames by joining in the condemnation.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

londoncommuter0000
Posts: 177
Joined: 18 Jul 2018, 10:36am

Re: Cyclists ignoring traffic lights

Postby londoncommuter0000 » 5 Feb 2019, 9:30am

robing wrote:
Denny wrote:If it's safe to do so, what is the problem : :D

None whatsoever. No different from a pedestrian crossing the road at a pedestrian crossing on red if there is no traffic.


Erm, no.

There is, in England & Wales, no offence of 'jaywalking' or similar. It is therefore not an offence for a pedestrian to cross the road when the 'red man' is showing.

It is an offence for a cyclist to fail to stop at a red traffic signal.
--
Surly LHT | Genesis Flyer | Giant Defy Advanced Pro | CBoardman 29er Pro
London is a cesspit

pwa
Posts: 8781
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Cyclists ignoring traffic lights

Postby pwa » 5 Feb 2019, 9:50am

mjr wrote:But it's an excuse. We can no more stop all cyclists riding past red than all motorists, so we should neutralise this bad PR instead of fanning the flames by joining in the condemnation.

I don't know what it is like where you are, but around here, at major junctions, RLJing by motorists is almost always within a second of the lights going red. If it happens after that it is a cyclist. And it does promote the view of cyclists as rogue road users. People actually notice when a cyclist waits at a red light.

I know the danger from cyclists jumping red lights is small. It doesn't keep me awake at night. But what concerns me is the picture it creates in the minds of non-cyclists. Not an entirely rational or justified picture, but a picture that might affect how much patience they show cyclists they encounter.

But I know the chances of reducing the number of cyclists RLJing are slim to non-existent, so I'm not going to spend too much time worrying about it.

User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 43917
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: Cyclists ignoring traffic lights

Postby Mick F » 5 Feb 2019, 9:58am

I arrived at some temporary lights yesterday. Car coming towards me, my lights on red. I stopped and waited.

.................. and waited and waited .................

No traffic in either direction, so I went through on red.

As I left the other side, there was a lady and gent walking their dog. They said, "The lights don't work!"
I replied, "Just worked that out! :lol: :lol: "
Mick F. Cornwall