Another cyclist killed by lorry in London

[661-Pete]

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/ ... 12801.html
I suppose this one got more news coverage than most, because of the victim's connections with the queen.

Another tragedy. Another crash involving a lorry. Specifically, another crash involving a construction lorry. Is there something about these vehicles?

We don't live or cycle in London, but in our home town (Burgess Hill) there are an awful lot of construction trucks rumbling their way through the town centre these days, thanks to an unprecedented amount of greenfield housing development going on. So we've had our share of close encounters. Enough to make one worried - a lot!

Incidentally, most of the lorries plying through our area carry the insignia of the construction company PJ Brown. Anyone know anything about their record re road safety? The lorry involved in the High Holborn crash was Travis Perkins.

[bovlomov]

Another crash involving a lorry. Specifically, another crash involving a construction lorry. Is there something about these vehicles?

A few years ago some supermarkets talked about various ways that they could make their lorries safer for cyclists. That's all good, but supermarket lorries don't seem to be the problem.

Construction traffic is worse for several reasons. They are all on tight timetables, in and out of sites. The drivers are employed more casually, leading to lower training and worse behaviour than fleet drivers. The frequent subcontracting means some of the lorries are in poor condition. The size and shape of those trucks and their tyres must be a factor too.

[foxyrider]

Despite what HGV operators claim, there is no reason for most construction vehicles to. Be as high or large as they mostly are. Brands such as Mercedes and Dennis have made suitable low chassis designs for many years which significantly improve driver eyelines and so improve safety for all road users. But there is no will to change to safer vehicles amongst operators.

There is also a strong move from high street brands to use un liveried vehicles for anonymity of the goods. For example, Ikea goods are transported in trailers in the logistics company livery, Malcolm. In my area there are lots of quarries and resulting tipper traffic - much of this is anonymous and poorly driven.

Closer control of drivers hours could bring an end to the 'ratting' this sector of logistics relies on, payment per load ensures traffic managers encourage drivers to drive on the edge of the law.

I don't think that poor maintenance is contributory to such tragedies, rather the aura of fear that many drivers work in - no operator wants a vehicle off the road so maintenance is generally pretty good.

[mjr]

Another crash involving a lorry. Specifically, another crash involving a construction lorry. Is there something about these vehicles?

A few years ago some supermarkets talked about various ways that they could make their lorries safer for cyclists. That's all good, but supermarket lorries don't seem to be the problem.

Supermarkets' customers are the people getting killed and killing one's customers so blatantly is often bad for business. Construction lorry operators customers are the developers and the people getting killed have difficulty avoiding them - and checking which developer's contractor has killed your friends and which developments are theirs is too difficult for most people... so there's not the same sort of commercial pressure. Maybe it would help if killer construction lorry operators suffered far bigger fines and loss of licences, as well as the drivers being punished?

[thirdcrank]

I see that Hexhome, who knew a lot about the regulation of road haulage etc., hasn't been active since April 2016, which is a pity.

My impression, reinforced by several of his posts, is that the industry is now largely self-regulated as the various inspectorates have been reduced in size.

I think that the argument for doing this is that the large companies are well-run so there's no need to spend a lot of public money checking on them. Be that as it may, it leaves plenty of scope for the cowboys and there are few sheriffs to deal with them. Checking an HGV and driver is a job for a specialist who, as a starting point is qualified to drive the vehicle. Traffic law is full of twiddly bits and that's so with HGV's with brass knobs on so effective enforcement depends on a lot of training. Such specialists are a dying breed. This is why, for example, when there was a cluster of riders' deaths in London, the Metropolitan Police was reduced after the first couple of days of the campaign to stopping cyclists and advising them to wear helmets and hi-viz.

[atlas_shrugged]

When I sat in the cab of a lorry it was not possible to see a cycle or motorbike directly in front of the cab or low down on each side. It is also not possible to see directly behind the truck. Let us say that 60% of the road is not visible.

If car drivers were unable to see 60% of the road e.g. due to a sight defect then they would be instantly banned from driving.

IMHO the cab height should be made the same as a car. This would improve vision to the front and to the sides. Another advantage would be that lorry drivers would be less likely to tailgate on motorways and dual carriageways. Lorry drivers on busy roads are a significant cause of accidents because of tailgating and constantly switching lanes (e.g. the A14 and M11). So low cab height would also reduce accidents on these busy roads.

Alternatively we should have full segregation of pedestrians and cyclists from motor vehicles and I believe the is the best way to go.

[661-Pete]

Alternatively we should have full segregation of pedestrians and cyclists from motor vehicles and I believe the is the best way to go.

This would give most cyclists nowhere to go. The overwhelming majority of roads in this country have no space for any form of segregation.

Furthermore, we have ample evidence that segregation does not work when it does not continue through a busy junction.

[Mick F]

Exactly.
Segregation cannot work as most of the miles on roads in this country don't even have a pavement.

It always makes me smile when I see the back end of a lorry or bus with a warning for cyclists NOT to go up the left hand side.
What I'd like to see is a warning in the cab for lorries and busses NOT to overtake a cyclist. If they overtake, how do they know they can complete the overtake? If not, the cyclist is stuck up the left hand side anyway.

[atlas_shrugged]

By *full* segregation I meant including junctions. A bit like the Netherlands, and some, which also has space problems because of overcrowding.

Stevenage was also a good effort.

[Mick F]

What about outside Stevenage?
Maybe the town is good, but what about the roads between there and MK or there and St Albans?

The nearest decent town to us is Tavistock. We have pavements in Gunnislake village, but there is no walkway, and no room for a walkway, for all the 5miles to Tavistock. If you want to cycle there like I do, there is no option but to be with the traffic on the A390.

As I said, the vast majority of the roads in this country don't even have a walkway, so there's no way that they can segregate the traffic, pedestrians and cyclists. Ain't no room.

[mjr]

As I said, the vast majority of the roads in this country don't even have a walkway, so there's no way that they can segregate the traffic, pedestrians and cyclists. Ain't no room.

As I've said before, there is always room to provided protected space for walking and cycling, but there isn't the political will to do so because in a few cases it would mean reducing the space available to motorists and in most cases motorists will complain about the money spent and restrictions imposed while building it.

The nearest decent town to us is Tavistock. We have pavements in Gunnislake village, but there is no walkway, and no room for a walkway, for all the 5miles to Tavistock. If you want to cycle there like I do, there is no option but to be with the traffic on the A390.

Of course there's room: a clip-on bridge over the Tamar, close off the direct road up the hill to non-resident motorists, cut into the bank to make a walkway where the new road uses the old straight road, tarmac the old road from Harvest Home to Belle Leather, then remove the centre hatching and narrow the lanes to standard width instead of the current wide ones and that looks like would get you onto the Tavistock pavements with one difficult narrow bit. Not much of it has been built on. It's open countryside, not narrow medieval streets. Fixing that mistake of past governments wouldn't be cheap, but that's a different problem to "no room".

[661-Pete]

Stevenage was also a good effort.

The Stevenage experiment did not end up as the success it was meant to me. I am puzzled as to why this is, but the evidence is there:
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017 ... -stevenage
Perhaps British cyclists have a different sort of motivation than their Dutch counterparts.

[[XAP]Bob]

Stevenage was also a good effort.

The Stevenage experiment did not end up as the success it was meant to me. I am puzzled as to why this is, but the evidence is there:
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017 ... -stevenage
Perhaps British cyclists have a different sort of motivation than their Dutch counterparts.

Making cycling convenient whilst also making driving extremely convenient won’t shift people’s modes...

[basingstoke123]

Stevenage was also a good effort.

The Stevenage experiment did not end up as the success it was meant to me. I am puzzled as to why this is, but the evidence is there:
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017 ... -stevenage
Perhaps British cyclists have a different sort of motivation than their Dutch counterparts.

Making cycling convenient whilst also making driving extremely convenient won’t shift people’s modes...

What the planners consider to be good and convenient and what cyclists consider to be good are usually worlds apart. So much so, that cyclists choose to mix with traffic on the road instead of cycling a few feet to the left along a 'nice' cycle path.
In many older town centres in Holland, cyclists are not segregated from motor traffic. Just like here, there is often no space to do so. And country lanes do not usually have cycle lanes.

[mjr]

In many older town centres in Holland, cyclists are not segregated from motor traffic. Just like here, there is often no space to do so. And country lanes do not usually have cycle lanes.

Perhaps not usually, but enough country lanes have cycle lanes or access restrictions to form a useful network. There's just not the guidance, duty or habit of doing that in England yet, but I would love to see it.