Another cyclist killed by lorry in London

[CubbyJaggy]

It should be but at the moment it isn't so until then Cyclists should be more aware and take such things in to account

[ANTONISH]

Indeed. It works both ways. In most situations you can see the driver in his cab in the mirrors as you approach the vehicle. In fact it's one of the things I do automatically driving or cycling. It's a self defence tactic in much the same way Richard Ballantyne taught me to make eye contact with drivers likely to cross my path. There are lots of simple methods like these that help you to make incident free progress on the road and I am often reminded that there are many road users out there that never put them into practice.

[/quote]
This is the Richard Ballantyne who advises an emergency stop of turning the bars at right angles and collapsing the wheel

[pwa]

I firmly believe that safety is maximised when all parties are doing what they can to minimise danger. Cyclist safety in relation to HGVs will be highest when HGV drivers and cyclists are both doing what they can to look out for dangerous circumstances.

In the instance cited by Mjr, with the cyclist run over by a lorry that had approached from behind, I agree that it is not practical or helpful to expect the cyclist to start reversing to ensure the driver can see him/her. The driver arrived last and should have that situation in hand.

But we should also bear in mind just how difficult and stressful it must be to drive a large lorry in a congested urban environment with things going on all around you. Even with cameras you are not guaranteed to spot someone who appears suddenly alongside, especially if another road user is demanding your attention in a different direction at the same time. So we need to be aware of that, if only for our own sake.

None of these thoughts relate directly to the sad incident that started this thread, about which I know nothing.

[amediasatex]

Apart from the issue of finding yourself in a blind spot through no fault of your own due to vehicle moving, and there not necessarily being a way to escape that blind spot easily (especialyl in an urban environment), I take issue with this:

I would argue this is the wrong attitude if you know that a big lorry has a blind spot

Firstly, not everyone does know. It might be common sense to some, and has been explained to others, but not everyone knows it, and kids certainly don't. Education campaigns may increase awareness but ultimately it's the wrong end of the problem, warning people to get away from dangerous vehicles instead of getting dangerous vehicles away from people.

Secondly, as evidenced on this thread there's enough disagreement about how big the blind spots are and where they are. How is 'everyone' supposed to know exactly where the blind spots are, or whether the lorry that has just pulled along side them has extra mirrors or cameras fitted and they are visible?

It's all well and good training cyclists to be aware of how dangerous some types of vehicle can be, but we shouldn't be training them to leap out of the way or disrupt their own journey every time one comes near. The responsibility lies on the operator of the vehicle to pilot it safely around people.

It's telling that to manoeuvre such a vehicle on a site requires a banksman as it's deemed unsafe to do otherwise, and that's on a site where everyone is aware and playing by the same rules, yet as soon as you leave the gates you can drive that very same vehicle amongst the general public in an environment which is often busier, and far more fluid in terms of change, with people on foot, bike, wheelchair, scooter and in cars all mixing it up around you and on conflicting trajectories...

I have the utmost respect for decent HGV drivers, it's an incredibly difficult job to do well and the responsibility upon them is high, there will always be a few careless operators but we shouldn't hinder the careful ones by continuing to equip them with vehicles that are so dangerous, especially when safer designs are available, the issue is one of cost and replacement of existing fleets, but this could have been dealt with in legislation with a phased approach starting decades ago mandating design changes for new vehicles and/or excluding certain types from urban spaces. As it is we are still yet to even try and fix this in the future, let alone now.

[peetee]

Yes that Richard Ballantyne and by mentioning him I wasn't suggesting everything he said was to be followed to the letter (I don't remember a situation that warranted sticking a bike pump down a dog's throat - some drivers maybe but not a dog ) but I have found the eye contact thing useful many times in as much as it tells you far more than the vehicles position or trajectory can. I ride defensively and use whatever opportunities available to assess the likely movements of every vehicle around me. Relative speeds, sight lines, traffic density, junction proximity and layout, understanding of bind spots, and so on. Why wouldn't anyone? I see plenty that don't and I just don't understand it.
I'd just like to clarify my experience of lorries. I have driven 7.5 ton delivery vehicles (Argos/john Lewis sized
rigid body not articulated). Anyone over a certain age can drive these on a standard car licence and I am one of them. As you can appreciate the first time I took charge of one of these it was pretty daunting but after a drive around the works yard it was plain to me that it was going to be far easier than expected. Visibility from a properly set up vehicle of this size is excellent and once you are familiar with the dynamics of the steering and extremities you can drive the things safely and confidently. I don't consider myself to be a particularly skillful road user either. For comparison I am no good at reversing a car and trailer combo or looking over my shoulder while cycling!

[Cyril Haearn]

I too may drive a vehicle up to 7.5 t, with a trailer etc with a car licence. Fortunately younger people may not, +1 for law changes

I read Richards BB many years ago, have no copy now, remember it quite well
Wonder what he meant seriously and what was irony
He advised always wearing a h****t and asserted "fast is safe" I think

I am thinking about an updated new version, BBB
Brynpoeths Bicycle Book