Advice please for the cycling community
Advice please for the cycling community
Hi everyone, I have joined this forum as a non-cycling person as I would very much appreciate some advice.
Over the course of the last few weeks I have been subjected to 3 very aggressive verbal attacks by cyclists and one gesturing rudely. Never happened before until recently. I live in a very rural area, narrow lanes and blind corners.
The first was by far the worst, I was driving down an almost single track country lane with passing places, very bendy with blind corners. Came across about 20 cyclists, some riding 2-3 abreast some not, did not overtake stayed behind, not close and driving slowly. When it was clearer the cyclist at the rear waved me through and thanked me. Then came upon the next group, stayed behind again, driving slowly as blind corner and then 50 yards or so and another blind corner. As the second corner went round I could see the straight was clear and the road widens to two lanes so I overtook a bunch. I stopped at the junction, two cyclists proceeded to ride up past my drivers side and two or three on the passenger side. The two to my drivers side turned right... and I went to turn left, slammed my brakes on as the ones who had turned right decided to do a u turn in the middle of the road..... I was then sworn at an told to get out of the ***** way, whilst to my left I have a two or three cyclists also shouting at me to go past them. There was then a car coming towards me and I could not go anywhere, had I done so the cyclists would have been squashed or I'd have had a head on collision. The was then another car so I waited, only to continue to be sworn at and shouted at and told to get off the ******* road or overtake them now. I kept my windows up and did not retaliate, I was so upset and shocked by this behaviour, in fact as I was stopped I was actually scared he might come and open the door to attack me. He was so vile I was actually shaking and burst into tears, also with my young son in the car.
The other incidents were similar in nature involving riders cycling three or four abreast down country lanes with blind corners, shouted and sworn at as they are across the road before a blind corner and I have to slam brakes on and swerve.
I appreciate not all cyclist are like this which is why I am seeking advice, I understand too that not all vehicle drivers are considerate so I would like some advice as to what to do in these situations, we should all be able to use the road without abuse and aggression. There are many many cyclists in my area who are more than polite and thank you for slowing down, leaving a large gap and being considerate and then there are the others. What should I do in these situations as it is blatant verbal abuse and cyclist road rage.
Advice much appreciated
Over the course of the last few weeks I have been subjected to 3 very aggressive verbal attacks by cyclists and one gesturing rudely. Never happened before until recently. I live in a very rural area, narrow lanes and blind corners.
The first was by far the worst, I was driving down an almost single track country lane with passing places, very bendy with blind corners. Came across about 20 cyclists, some riding 2-3 abreast some not, did not overtake stayed behind, not close and driving slowly. When it was clearer the cyclist at the rear waved me through and thanked me. Then came upon the next group, stayed behind again, driving slowly as blind corner and then 50 yards or so and another blind corner. As the second corner went round I could see the straight was clear and the road widens to two lanes so I overtook a bunch. I stopped at the junction, two cyclists proceeded to ride up past my drivers side and two or three on the passenger side. The two to my drivers side turned right... and I went to turn left, slammed my brakes on as the ones who had turned right decided to do a u turn in the middle of the road..... I was then sworn at an told to get out of the ***** way, whilst to my left I have a two or three cyclists also shouting at me to go past them. There was then a car coming towards me and I could not go anywhere, had I done so the cyclists would have been squashed or I'd have had a head on collision. The was then another car so I waited, only to continue to be sworn at and shouted at and told to get off the ******* road or overtake them now. I kept my windows up and did not retaliate, I was so upset and shocked by this behaviour, in fact as I was stopped I was actually scared he might come and open the door to attack me. He was so vile I was actually shaking and burst into tears, also with my young son in the car.
The other incidents were similar in nature involving riders cycling three or four abreast down country lanes with blind corners, shouted and sworn at as they are across the road before a blind corner and I have to slam brakes on and swerve.
I appreciate not all cyclist are like this which is why I am seeking advice, I understand too that not all vehicle drivers are considerate so I would like some advice as to what to do in these situations, we should all be able to use the road without abuse and aggression. There are many many cyclists in my area who are more than polite and thank you for slowing down, leaving a large gap and being considerate and then there are the others. What should I do in these situations as it is blatant verbal abuse and cyclist road rage.
Advice much appreciated
Re: Advice please for the cycling community
Sadly idiots are idiots, whether sitting on a bike or anywhere else. Morons do nobody any favours - just like the uninsured, unregistered vehicle that wiped me out on a junction in February on my bike, or the young lad in his Saxo who turned right across my path and wrote off my Merc last July.
I have a lot of sympathy, I avoid Sportive mass-rides as there is a contingent who want to play at racing and ride as if it's a closed road. If you want to race, get a racing licence! They want to play hard but probably don't want the humiliation of getting their legs ripped off! It's like the boy-racer lad in his Vauxhall Corsa with a comedy exhaust.
A lot more people have taken up road riding and lack the experience or roadcraft to ride safely in a bunch. If the bunch is decent, then people at the bak or front will be calling 'car up' or 'car back' to get people to bunch and allow safe passing.
Most clubs insist that people wear club jerseys on group rides to enable any problems to be reported and to encourage accountability. If it's a club, contact them.
I have a lot of sympathy, I avoid Sportive mass-rides as there is a contingent who want to play at racing and ride as if it's a closed road. If you want to race, get a racing licence! They want to play hard but probably don't want the humiliation of getting their legs ripped off! It's like the boy-racer lad in his Vauxhall Corsa with a comedy exhaust.
A lot more people have taken up road riding and lack the experience or roadcraft to ride safely in a bunch. If the bunch is decent, then people at the bak or front will be calling 'car up' or 'car back' to get people to bunch and allow safe passing.
Most clubs insist that people wear club jerseys on group rides to enable any problems to be reported and to encourage accountability. If it's a club, contact them.
Re: Advice please for the cycling community
Fit a dashcam.
When you get an incident try to review it impartially. If in doubt ask someone else for another opinion.
It may be they're idiots but then perhaps something happened you either didn't notice or you do something without thinking through the consequences?
Obviously from your description it sounds like they're just idiots, but from my experience I've heard stories from folk I know and when they've shown me the footage it's pretty easy to see who really was at fault and why.
FWIW, fitting a camera to my bike made me a better cyclist. Even when it wasn't my fault I could look over the footage and think about what I could do differently.
OTOH if it's their fault and presuming it's a club you've the evidence to confront them with and I suspect most clubs are fairly keen on projecting a good image. The last thing most cyclists really want is angry cyclist hating motorists driving around.
When you get an incident try to review it impartially. If in doubt ask someone else for another opinion.
It may be they're idiots but then perhaps something happened you either didn't notice or you do something without thinking through the consequences?
Obviously from your description it sounds like they're just idiots, but from my experience I've heard stories from folk I know and when they've shown me the footage it's pretty easy to see who really was at fault and why.
FWIW, fitting a camera to my bike made me a better cyclist. Even when it wasn't my fault I could look over the footage and think about what I could do differently.
OTOH if it's their fault and presuming it's a club you've the evidence to confront them with and I suspect most clubs are fairly keen on projecting a good image. The last thing most cyclists really want is angry cyclist hating motorists driving around.
Re: Advice please for the cycling community
I do not aim to condone their behaviour but perhaps the initial antagonism was as a result of you overtaking them and then braking sharply for the junction. Even the best bikes need much greater braking distance than a car and riding as a group you would naturally increase the space between each other to allow for differences in braking capibility. The space that had been free as they approached the junction within which they needed to slow down was now occupied by a vehicle that they considered should have stayed behind them. I suspect this may be the trigger because you said 'the junction' as if it was within close proximity to the overtaking manouever and because the cyclists had joined you at the junction before you had time to pull away.
The older I get the more I’m inclined to act my shoe size, not my age.
Re: Advice please for the cycling community
I would advise you to be patient and wait for either a) a safe place to overtake, or b) the cyclists to turn off your route. Either of which probably won't hold you up for more than 2-3 minutes at the most.
I'd also be very wary about overtaking following a "wave through" from the rearmost cyclist as there is no way that they could see that the road is clear past the lead cyclist.
I'd also be very wary about overtaking following a "wave through" from the rearmost cyclist as there is no way that they could see that the road is clear past the lead cyclist.
Re: Advice please for the cycling community
Thank you all so much for your replies. It is much appreciated to get the opinion of those on the bikes as my perspective in a car is very different.
Peetee.... I overtook on the 100 yard straight and was stopped at the junction as they came up the inside and outside, as they had turned right I went to pyll away and turn left only for them to do a a u turn without even looking, I then slammed on my brakes. The bikes to my left were stopped on the verge and was one of them shouting abuse. I do understand your point, however they were the ones wanting me to go from stopped after the junction which would then have resulted in a head on collision or squashed cyclist neither or which I ever want to happen. I found it strange that they were aggressive when it would have been dangerous.
Good advice re wave through, he was quite a bit in front but definitely something I won't do again, but then I also don't want abuse for not doing as I'm told by a cyclist which was what later happened.
Yes I think was possibly club ride and they seemed to have racing mentality.
I will continue to be vigilant as we all should be able to use the roads. I was just shocked and upset at the aggressive nature. I know you are not all the same and idiots will also be idiots maybe they also have a Corsa with a big exhaust!!!
Peetee.... I overtook on the 100 yard straight and was stopped at the junction as they came up the inside and outside, as they had turned right I went to pyll away and turn left only for them to do a a u turn without even looking, I then slammed on my brakes. The bikes to my left were stopped on the verge and was one of them shouting abuse. I do understand your point, however they were the ones wanting me to go from stopped after the junction which would then have resulted in a head on collision or squashed cyclist neither or which I ever want to happen. I found it strange that they were aggressive when it would have been dangerous.
Good advice re wave through, he was quite a bit in front but definitely something I won't do again, but then I also don't want abuse for not doing as I'm told by a cyclist which was what later happened.
Yes I think was possibly club ride and they seemed to have racing mentality.
I will continue to be vigilant as we all should be able to use the roads. I was just shocked and upset at the aggressive nature. I know you are not all the same and idiots will also be idiots maybe they also have a Corsa with a big exhaust!!!
Re: Advice please for the cycling community
If I read your post correctly you overtook the cyclists on a 100 yard straight before a junction. Club cyclist would take approximately 10 - 15 seconds to cover that distance and stop. For you to overtake and be clear of them would involve quite rapid acceleration and deceleration. I suspect that they all wanted to turn right but were unable to remain as a group at the junction because your vehicle was occupying their braking space and they moved to the only available space to slow - that was to the left and right of you. When the front group turned but the others didn't follow they were concerned and turned around to see where they were and if they were OK. Its quite possible they couldn't even see the group left behind but the loud remonstrations of that group to your left and your proximity was enough to make the lead group concerned that one or other of them had collided with your car.
I don't believe that you intended to do anything to upset or disrupt the cyclist progress in any way but I fear that you may have misjudged the length of road available for your maneuver and the resultant abuse from the cyclist was as much fear and defence for the group as a whole than indicative of individual behaviour.
I don't believe that you intended to do anything to upset or disrupt the cyclist progress in any way but I fear that you may have misjudged the length of road available for your maneuver and the resultant abuse from the cyclist was as much fear and defence for the group as a whole than indicative of individual behaviour.
The older I get the more I’m inclined to act my shoe size, not my age.
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Re: Advice please for the cycling community
It's difficult to be clear what happened. I had assumed maybe you had overtaken then stopped at a junction and there had plenty of room, but others seem to think otherwise and it may have been that the overtake was a bit too close to the junction.
It is annoying when someone overtakes then pulls for a junction etc., and basically occupying my braking space or at least the space i was anticipating using and now have to brake far more sharply.
We have all shouted out when we feel threatened (well I certainly have) adrenaline and alarm at having safety threatened.But to continue to do so is unforgiveable.
A dash cam might well be a good idea to give some better idea of what happens for future reference. Have recently got one for my vehicle as getting fed up of situations where an accident was narrowly avoided by my actions rather than that of another road user.
For the record as a driver I have watched in horror as charity riders do stupid things like ride around in circles in junction when I was attempting to turn into a side road, and ridden around a blind bend on the wrong side (one was a young child) narrowly escaping a meeting and injury.
It is annoying when someone overtakes then pulls for a junction etc., and basically occupying my braking space or at least the space i was anticipating using and now have to brake far more sharply.
We have all shouted out when we feel threatened (well I certainly have) adrenaline and alarm at having safety threatened.But to continue to do so is unforgiveable.
A dash cam might well be a good idea to give some better idea of what happens for future reference. Have recently got one for my vehicle as getting fed up of situations where an accident was narrowly avoided by my actions rather than that of another road user.
For the record as a driver I have watched in horror as charity riders do stupid things like ride around in circles in junction when I was attempting to turn into a side road, and ridden around a blind bend on the wrong side (one was a young child) narrowly escaping a meeting and injury.
I stand and rejoice everytime I see a woman ride by on a wheel the picture of free, untrammeled womanhood. HG Wells
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Re: Advice please for the cycling community
The common factor in all these incidents is yourself. Anyone may occasionally be encounter an aggressive nutter, but if these things are happening repeatedly then it is likely your driving is frightening the cyclists that you are overtaking and triggering an alarmed response. As those familiar with my contributions to this forum will recognise, I am not one of those two-wheels-good-four-wheels-bad types who always takes a cyclists side and I am regularly critical of cyclists.
To understand the situation better try to see these incidents from the perspective of the cyclists.
Being overtaken by someone who then immediately stops at a junction in front of you is annoying. As a driver you probably haven't experience it - but imagine driving along a single carriageway road being overtaken by a high performance sports car, which then stops in front of you blocking your progress while they wait to turn right in front of you. It happens frequently enough to cyclists that we usually just shake our heads at the stupidity. From your description of the group passing om either side of you and some making a turn it sounds as if they were forced to take emergency evasive action to avoid you.
On country lanes you should always be able to stop within half the distance you can see to be clear. There could be an oncoming vehicle just out of sight around the next blind bend. If you have had to slam on the brakes and swerve to avoid a cyclist then you were going to fast. This will have been frightening for the cyclists concerned.
To understand the situation better try to see these incidents from the perspective of the cyclists.
Being overtaken by someone who then immediately stops at a junction in front of you is annoying. As a driver you probably haven't experience it - but imagine driving along a single carriageway road being overtaken by a high performance sports car, which then stops in front of you blocking your progress while they wait to turn right in front of you. It happens frequently enough to cyclists that we usually just shake our heads at the stupidity. From your description of the group passing om either side of you and some making a turn it sounds as if they were forced to take emergency evasive action to avoid you.
On country lanes you should always be able to stop within half the distance you can see to be clear. There could be an oncoming vehicle just out of sight around the next blind bend. If you have had to slam on the brakes and swerve to avoid a cyclist then you were going to fast. This will have been frightening for the cyclists concerned.
Re: Advice please for the cycling community
Firstly, 100 yards is unlikely to be enough space to safely overtake club cyclists in a group. It's barely enough to over take a lone cyclist going at 15 mph. Either you have misremembered or this is one of the sources of frustration on the part of the cyclists.
It is easy to underestimate the speed of cyclists, and club cyclists will typically be going quite fast, perhaps 18 or 20 mph. They will have covered most of the 100 yards in the time it takes to mirror, signal, maneuver, and overtake, leaving you little room to get back onto your side of the road (for the junction).
There are few places on a nrrow and windy lane to overtake. I would just stay behind and wait until they are gone (turned off, or gone a different way), or even pull into a passing place and wait for them.
Chris Boardman and driving instructor Blaine Walsh explain overtaking cyclists in this short video
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... ould-watch
Secondly, it sounds like the cyclists made an error in the turn, and then again in gesturing you when there was another car coming. Please judge the situation for yourself, and don't accept others' judgement.
I'm sorry that you experienced this. I have have experienced something similar from a motorist when I was cycling with my children in a trailer. It's not nice to have interactions like that with others.
Situations like that, though can be quite stressful, and while I am not excusing the cyclists' behaviour, it may have been a reaction to percieved threat to their lives. I have sometimes sworn at other road users, as almost instinctive reaction. Ususally it's just 'oy!!' or soemthing like that, but sometimes it's far worse If I am driving a car, no one can hear me, but if I'm on my bike, everyone around, can!
It is easy to underestimate the speed of cyclists, and club cyclists will typically be going quite fast, perhaps 18 or 20 mph. They will have covered most of the 100 yards in the time it takes to mirror, signal, maneuver, and overtake, leaving you little room to get back onto your side of the road (for the junction).
There are few places on a nrrow and windy lane to overtake. I would just stay behind and wait until they are gone (turned off, or gone a different way), or even pull into a passing place and wait for them.
Chris Boardman and driving instructor Blaine Walsh explain overtaking cyclists in this short video
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... ould-watch
Secondly, it sounds like the cyclists made an error in the turn, and then again in gesturing you when there was another car coming. Please judge the situation for yourself, and don't accept others' judgement.
I'm sorry that you experienced this. I have have experienced something similar from a motorist when I was cycling with my children in a trailer. It's not nice to have interactions like that with others.
Situations like that, though can be quite stressful, and while I am not excusing the cyclists' behaviour, it may have been a reaction to percieved threat to their lives. I have sometimes sworn at other road users, as almost instinctive reaction. Ususally it's just 'oy!!' or soemthing like that, but sometimes it's far worse If I am driving a car, no one can hear me, but if I'm on my bike, everyone around, can!
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Re: Advice please for the cycling community
What kind of junction? There is a big difference between a junction where the main road continues and one where you are faced with a stop and a left/right choice.
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Re: Advice please for the cycling community
Pete and Vorpal have hit the nail on the head.
'late' overtaking is a big issue for cyclists, many drivers just assume a bike will always be going at 10mph and what would be a safe pass at that speed becomes a dangerous one as soon as a junction or other turn / stop manoeuvre occurs in conjunction. Most times (and this will happen several times on even very rural rides) i'll just cuss under my breath, the more stupid and dangerous driving I will admit might get something a bit more vocal.
Don't take it too personally, they are venting at what they consider to be your dangerous driving. You can save all this by waiting for a safe passing place - the few seconds you might save on your journey will be lost as soon as you stop at the junction anyhow. I've had drivers harang me after I signalled my displeasure at their driving, even turning around to follow me - so they've now wasted several minutes because they feel wronged, proof indeed that they could have waited a few seconds to wait to pass safely or let me clear the junction.
I've noticed that whilst a lot of the late passers/turners are boy/van racers, increasingly it's older, more 'experienced' drivers, maybe the message is finally getting through during driving lessons.
'late' overtaking is a big issue for cyclists, many drivers just assume a bike will always be going at 10mph and what would be a safe pass at that speed becomes a dangerous one as soon as a junction or other turn / stop manoeuvre occurs in conjunction. Most times (and this will happen several times on even very rural rides) i'll just cuss under my breath, the more stupid and dangerous driving I will admit might get something a bit more vocal.
Don't take it too personally, they are venting at what they consider to be your dangerous driving. You can save all this by waiting for a safe passing place - the few seconds you might save on your journey will be lost as soon as you stop at the junction anyhow. I've had drivers harang me after I signalled my displeasure at their driving, even turning around to follow me - so they've now wasted several minutes because they feel wronged, proof indeed that they could have waited a few seconds to wait to pass safely or let me clear the junction.
I've noticed that whilst a lot of the late passers/turners are boy/van racers, increasingly it's older, more 'experienced' drivers, maybe the message is finally getting through during driving lessons.
Convention? what's that then?
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Re: Advice please for the cycling community
Again thank you for all your advice, it's only happened a few times recently.
It was a T junction onto another country lane. The front portion of the group had all turned left and were cycling off down the road. Guess the ones who came up beside me on the drivers side and turned right were going the wrong way and then decided to turn in the middle of the road. I wasn't going fast I just pulled away to turn left when they rode in front of me without looking. I understand now they may have done that as less braking distance which I admit I hadn't thought of. However verbal abuse is still verbal abuse and not necessary. A shout of annoyance would have been enough but to keep shouting abuse and jesturing for me to drive into the path of an oncoming vehicle is just ridiculous.
It's very good to understand and learn about your manovering and braking requirements and I will keep this in mind now. That's why I wanted the feedback on the situation.
As any road user should know, driving or cycling or walking or horse riding etc in the middle of the road down country lanes or any road for that matter and around blind corners is not a good idea and I would hate any of us to suffer harm from any road user. We see too many horrific accidents. Some of the stories on here about cyclists being hurt sound terrible and I feel for you.
I am glad I have learnt more about how you cycle and your needs on the road. Thank you.
It was a T junction onto another country lane. The front portion of the group had all turned left and were cycling off down the road. Guess the ones who came up beside me on the drivers side and turned right were going the wrong way and then decided to turn in the middle of the road. I wasn't going fast I just pulled away to turn left when they rode in front of me without looking. I understand now they may have done that as less braking distance which I admit I hadn't thought of. However verbal abuse is still verbal abuse and not necessary. A shout of annoyance would have been enough but to keep shouting abuse and jesturing for me to drive into the path of an oncoming vehicle is just ridiculous.
It's very good to understand and learn about your manovering and braking requirements and I will keep this in mind now. That's why I wanted the feedback on the situation.
As any road user should know, driving or cycling or walking or horse riding etc in the middle of the road down country lanes or any road for that matter and around blind corners is not a good idea and I would hate any of us to suffer harm from any road user. We see too many horrific accidents. Some of the stories on here about cyclists being hurt sound terrible and I feel for you.
I am glad I have learnt more about how you cycle and your needs on the road. Thank you.
Re: Advice please for the cycling community
dancer84 wrote:As any road user should know, driving or cycling or walking or horse riding etc in the middle of the road down country lanes or any road for that matter and around blind corners is not a good idea and I would hate any of us to suffer harm from any road user. We see too many horrific accidents. Some of the stories on here about cyclists being hurt sound terrible and I feel for you.
I am glad I have learnt more about how you cycle and your needs on the road. Thank you.
Actually, riding out in the middle, especially on a narrow road protects us from people trying to squeeze past where there isn't enough room. Would you say the same about a car?
Cyclists have a right to an entire lane, and there are times that it is recommended that we use it for our own safety. There is a book called Cyclecraft, which is the official guide for cyclists in Great Britain, and is published by government. Bikeability (the current version of cycling proficiency) is based upon it, and both recommend using the middle of the lane/road (primary position, or 'taking the lane') when there is not room for safe overtaking.
If you had met a car going the same speed as you around a blind bend, would you have been able to avoid a crash? If you always expect to find something in the middle of the road around a blind bend, you will always be driving in a manner that is safe for other road users.
I'm glad that you have learned something from this, and sorry that you had to suffer verbal abuse to do it.
edited to add: this is about riding in the middle... https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... e-the-lane
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
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Re: Advice please for the cycling community
Any driver who is concerned about things like cyclists riding two-abreast should just spare a moment to look at the seating arrangement in their own car where the seats won't be in single file but rather two and three abreast, even when the vehicle is occupied only by the driver. A car driver "needs" all that width against the possibility that they will occasionally carry a carful of passengers. I'm a driver, but I'm not so arrogant as to believe that being in a car gives me the right to have others get out of my way.
While I'm on, an increasingly large part of the problem with a shortage of road space is the result of drivers having to park somewhere for the large part of the time when their vehicle is not in use. A modern car may be very nice but it's a burden when not being driven.
Then, a moving vehicle occupies not only the road under it, but all the road within its stopping distance, which increases with speed. By driving at an inappropriate speed, selfish drivers take possession of a lot of road; tailgaters are actually occupying the space already occupied by the vehicle in front and sometimes several vehicles in front.
While I'm on, an increasingly large part of the problem with a shortage of road space is the result of drivers having to park somewhere for the large part of the time when their vehicle is not in use. A modern car may be very nice but it's a burden when not being driven.
Then, a moving vehicle occupies not only the road under it, but all the road within its stopping distance, which increases with speed. By driving at an inappropriate speed, selfish drivers take possession of a lot of road; tailgaters are actually occupying the space already occupied by the vehicle in front and sometimes several vehicles in front.