City centre cycling ban

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rmurphy195
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Re: City centre cycling ban

Postby rmurphy195 » 23 Oct 2018, 12:22am

Debs wrote:Seems to be the age old problem of just a few idiots riding bikes in a careless way, and which gives all cyclist the bad name, and a ban.

Not really sure what the answer is, maybe the Tory government needs to stop reducing police numbers, get more bobbies back on the beat, and perhaps on police bicycles (?)


Is it a few though?

I often cycle into Birmingham from Longbridge using the Rea valley cyclepath through SellyOak/Cannon Hill Park, and often bemoan the fact that I'm continuously slowing down for pedestrians etc - but I do, bell, cheery "good morning" and all as I go past at about walking speed relative to those I'm passing. If I'm in a hurry I use the Bristol or Pershore roads.

This Sunday I walked the path from Cartland Road into Cannon Hill park and back, pushing a buggy with my 1yr old granddaughter in it, and was passed by lots of cyclists - I didn't count them, but at about 40 mins each way on a Sunday morning it must have been numbered in dozens.

I heard 2 bells - one a cheery one from behind, the other from a gentleman coming towards me who clearly wasn't about to - and didn't - deviate from his speed and direction one bit.

I heard one more warning - to the "person" who raced up behind me with a loud horn blasting away, thanks for waking the baby.

I can recollect a handful of people who slowed down on approach, rolled past, then accelerated away.

But most - and I mean most - charged past without a thought, brushing elbows as they wizzed by, some at quite a speed, weaving in and out of pedestrians (inc small children, toddling along/learning to ride their bikes), as if we were plastic traffic cones on a slalom course. Some were obviously inexperienced, some were heads-down-and-in-a-hurry.

Mind you, I should have expected it - similar experience on the same path a year or three back, when I was hobbling along with a walking stick, recovering from - you guessed it - being rammed by a motor vehicle while out on the bike.

Cheery "hello" or "good morning" or "just popping past on your left" - not a single, solitary one.

I remarked to my wife later that while I find the roads scary at times, I became more nervous of the bikes on the shared path while I was walking.
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mjr
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Re: City centre cycling ban

Postby mjr » 23 Oct 2018, 9:38am

rmurphy195 wrote:This Sunday I walked the path from Cartland Road into Cannon Hill park and back, pushing a buggy with my 1yr old granddaughter in it, and was passed by lots of cyclists - I didn't count them, but at about 40 mins each way on a Sunday morning it must have been numbered in dozens.

Well, what you call "the path" is National Route 5 in England's second city, so that's not really unreasonable, is it?

I heard 2 bells

Plenty of existing threads debating bells and horns and shouting at people on here, which I'll not retread here. Maybe the Highway Code update should have clearer guidance on it?

I heard one more warning - to the "person" who raced up behind me with a loud horn blasting away, thanks for waking the baby.

It's great that you expect NCR5 not to wake a sleeping baby. I think you wouldn't expect that of a walk alongside the A5 or M5.

But most - and I mean most - charged past without a thought, brushing elbows as they wizzed by, some at quite a speed, weaving in and out of pedestrians (inc small children, toddling along/learning to ride their bikes), as if we were plastic traffic cones on a slalom course.

And that's already illegal, from that dezcriptiom. I assume you weren't doing anything obstructive like spreading out across the road from the left side.

I remarked to my wife later that while I find the roads scary at times, I became more nervous of the bikes on the shared path while I was walking.

So you worried about the cyclists because a motorist hit you? It's difficult to know how to deal with that sort of reaction. Is there anything realistic the cyclists could do, bearing in mind we're never going to get 100% compliance or enforcement?
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mjr
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Re: City centre cycling ban

Postby mjr » 23 Oct 2018, 6:39pm

Returning to the original topic, what do those banning cycling hope to achieve? Do they want people on bikes to shop elsewhere and help kill the shops in the centre, or do they want all the cyclists to walk their bikes, being wider, slower and less stable, getting more in the way of other shoppers and helping to kill the shops in the centre?

There truly is no upside to blanket-banning cycling in town/city centres.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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The utility cyclist
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Re: City centre cycling ban

Postby The utility cyclist » 23 Oct 2018, 8:36pm

Grandad wrote:https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/latest-news/cyclists-branded-dangerous-selfish-councillor-bikes-banned-city-centre-397500

Having seen the way some idiots ride through a local pedestrianised area my inclination is to support such a ban

And having seen the way reckless , dangerous thugs kill and maim children, mums, dads, grandparents I would oppose any ban on healthy travel.

If you look here, this shows you what supporting cycling can do in a city/town centre. https://road.cc/content/news/250502-thr ... er-car-ban
typical narrow minded viewpoint based on a small number of people that are actually statistically less likely to harm than pedestrians to themselves!

pedals2slowly
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Re: City centre cycling ban

Postby pedals2slowly » 25 Oct 2018, 3:24am

Reality is the newspaper headline won't change anything, the irresponsible will continue to do what they do and the responsible will probably walk between 10.30 and 4.
There will be no enforcement apart from a one day show and tell in the newspaper.
Worcester remains at the bottom of the cycle friendly rankings.................... :(

pedals2slowly
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Re: City centre cycling ban

Postby pedals2slowly » 25 Oct 2018, 3:30am

Richard Fairhurst wrote:Such a ban is very disappointing. Worcester's street layout is such that the pedestrianised streets are enclosed by two basically unrideable A roads - Deansway to the west, City Walls Road to the east.


Incorrect, Deansway and City Walls are safe and rideable if you have learned basic safe riding skills.
I use these roads every week.
There are simple techniques which anyone can be taught - contact the Bikeability Team at Worcestershire County Council and request a 'Level 3' course.

Provision of separate cycling routes/paths is counter productive to educating the motorist to drive safely around cyclists and pie in the sky for the majority of the country's roads.

Richard Fairhurst
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Re: City centre cycling ban

Postby Richard Fairhurst » 25 Oct 2018, 10:41am

Describing something like this (City Walls Road) - a multi-lane road where motorists hare between a series of roundabouts and traffic lights - as safe for cyclists and rideable, while describing segregated infrastructure like this (the Embankment, London) as "counter productive" is, I guess, a view. But I'm glad it's no longer the majority view.
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brynpoeth
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Re: City centre cycling ban

Postby brynpoeth » 25 Oct 2018, 10:46am

I would not cycle City Walls Road. Do many cyclists use it?

Prefer not to cycle through the city at all, does not make sense when one has several calls

I leave my bike on the edge of the CBD and walk. If one wants to go from one side of Worcester to the other one could go by the river maybe
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mjr
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Re: City centre cycling ban

Postby mjr » 25 Oct 2018, 12:19pm

pedals2slowly wrote:
Richard Fairhurst wrote:Such a ban is very disappointing. Worcester's street layout is such that the pedestrianised streets are enclosed by two basically unrideable A roads - Deansway to the west, City Walls Road to the east.


Incorrect, Deansway and City Walls are safe and rideable if you have learned basic safe riding skills.
I use these roads every week.
There are simple techniques which anyone can be taught - contact the Bikeability Team at Worcestershire County Council and request a 'Level 3' course.

There are two small flaws in that logic:
1. In general, it's not a great idea to assume posters on here lack training or experience. I've been riding about 40 years and many of them know far more than me.
2. In this case, you might like to click Richard Fairhurst's username, then "Search user's posts"

And are you really comfortable implying that motorist-cyclist collisions on there are exclusively the fault of the cyclists?

pedals2slowly wrote:Provision of separate cycling routes/paths is counter productive to educating the motorist to drive safely around cyclists and pie in the sky for the majority of the country's roads.

If those roads "are safe and rideable if you have learned basic safe riding skills" then what do the motorists need educating about?

Secondly, it reads like you're calling on cyclists to sacrifice their route enjoyment (and perhaps, in a few cases, themselves) for the benefit of motorists.

Thirdly, aren't motorists meant to be supervised until they're educated to drive safely around everything?

And finally, the majority of the country's roads don't need reclaiming, but the majority of the major roads (which are generally the ones which do) have space in the highway corridor for a cycleway, if only Political Will could be found. It would be relatively cheap for a national transport project even to do the lot.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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mjr
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Re: City centre cycling ban

Postby mjr » 25 Oct 2018, 12:25pm

Richard Fairhurst wrote:Describing something like this (City Walls Road) - a multi-lane road where motorists hare between a series of roundabouts and traffic lights - as safe for cyclists and rideable, while describing segregated infrastructure like this (the Embankment, London) as "counter productive" is, I guess, a view. But I'm glad it's no longer the majority view.

City Walls Road and Dean Street both look like the products of a highways department which prefers to give space to corralling fences, deterrent paving and huge traffic islands beside sweeping wide-radius corners instead of human beings travelling more healthily. :-(
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Cugel
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Re: City centre cycling ban

Postby Cugel » 25 Oct 2018, 1:11pm

rmurphy195 wrote:
Debs wrote:Seems to be the age old problem of just a few idiots riding bikes in a careless way, and which gives all cyclist the bad name, and a ban.

Not really sure what the answer is, maybe the Tory government needs to stop reducing police numbers, get more bobbies back on the beat, and perhaps on police bicycles (?)


Is it a few though?

I often cycle into Birmingham from Longbridge using the Rea valley cyclepath through SellyOak/Cannon Hill Park, and often bemoan the fact that I'm continuously slowing down for pedestrians etc - but I do, bell, cheery "good morning" and all as I go past at about walking speed relative to those I'm passing. If I'm in a hurry I use the Bristol or Pershore roads.

This Sunday I walked the path from Cartland Road into Cannon Hill park and back, pushing a buggy with my 1yr old granddaughter in it, and was passed by lots of cyclists - I didn't count them, but at about 40 mins each way on a Sunday morning it must have been numbered in dozens.

I heard 2 bells - one a cheery one from behind, the other from a gentleman coming towards me who clearly wasn't about to - and didn't - deviate from his speed and direction one bit.

I heard one more warning - to the "person" who raced up behind me with a loud horn blasting away, thanks for waking the baby.

I can recollect a handful of people who slowed down on approach, rolled past, then accelerated away.

But most - and I mean most - charged past without a thought, brushing elbows as they wizzed by, some at quite a speed, weaving in and out of pedestrians (inc small children, toddling along/learning to ride their bikes), as if we were plastic traffic cones on a slalom course. Some were obviously inexperienced, some were heads-down-and-in-a-hurry.

Mind you, I should have expected it - similar experience on the same path a year or three back, when I was hobbling along with a walking stick, recovering from - you guessed it - being rammed by a motor vehicle while out on the bike.

Cheery "hello" or "good morning" or "just popping past on your left" - not a single, solitary one.

I remarked to my wife later that while I find the roads scary at times, I became more nervous of the bikes on the shared path while I was walking.


That's my experience too. The rude & ignorant are the norm in many places now. Me-me-me. I even have to lecture the members of my own club should they somehow persuade the club run to go down a shared path. I have to get on the front so I can ring the bell, slow the rascals down and say thank you / good day to those walking that we pass.

Personally I feel shared paths (cyclists + pedestrians) are another bad idea that's motivated by attempts to get cyclists away from traffic mostly for the benefit of the motorised loons, who won't then be annoyed by "bluddy cyclists slowing me down". There's a little bit of "let's keep cyclists safer" but this comes with the consequence of making pedestrians far less safe from the Strava-strivers and other two-wheeled fools "on a mission".

The (shared) path to hell is paved with good intentions full of unintended-consequence potholes.

Cugel

brynpoeth
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Re: City centre cycling ban

Postby brynpoeth » 25 Oct 2018, 1:12pm

Poor Worcester, poor Anytown.eu

More roads, more bypasses, more traffic :?

Plus One for different opinions, disagreement (argue nicely please)
I have been cycling for 45 years, did my Cycling Proficiency in 1973, cycled through Worcester in the 1970s + 1980s, much less traffic then (?)
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mjr
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Re: City centre cycling ban

Postby mjr » 25 Oct 2018, 1:55pm

Cugel wrote:Personally I feel shared paths (cyclists + pedestrians) are another bad idea that's motivated by attempts to get cyclists away from traffic mostly for the benefit of the motorised loons, who won't then be annoyed by "bluddy cyclists slowing me down". There's a little bit of "let's keep cyclists safer" but this comes with the consequence of making pedestrians far less safe from the Strava-strivers and other two-wheeled fools "on a mission".

Previously debunked at viewtopic.php?p=1284790#p1284790 - also, most people seeking separate cycleways say that there should still be footways where there is more than minimal foot traffic, but you ain't ever going to stop people walking on cycleways, so they will be shared in practice - as carriageways are in theory, but motorists intimidate walkers into the verge on most roads. We can't even stop motorists driving on cycleways and footways, so there's pretty much no chance of stopping people walking on cycleways, but that doesn't make cycleways undesirable.
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pedals2slowly
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Re: City centre cycling ban

Postby pedals2slowly » 25 Oct 2018, 2:14pm

mjr wrote: There are two small flaws in that logic:
1. In general, it's not a great idea to assume posters on here lack training or experience. I've been riding about 40 years and many of them know far more than me.
2. In this case, you might like to click Richard Fairhurst's username, then "Search user's posts"

And are you really comfortable implying that motorist-cyclist collisions on there are exclusively the fault of the cyclists?

pedals2slowly wrote:Provision of separate cycling routes/paths is counter productive to educating the motorist to drive safely around cyclists and pie in the sky for the majority of the country's roads.

If those roads "are safe and rideable if you have learned basic safe riding skills" then what do the motorists need educating about?

Secondly, it reads like you're calling on cyclists to sacrifice their route enjoyment (and perhaps, in a few cases, themselves) for the benefit of motorists.

Thirdly, aren't motorists meant to be supervised until they're educated to drive safely around everything?

And finally, the majority of the country's roads don't need reclaiming, but the majority of the major roads (which are generally the ones which do) have space in the highway corridor for a cycleway, if only Political Will could be found. It would be relatively cheap for a national transport project even to do the lot.


Slow, down, read my post and think...... doubt we'll agree from (what I read as) your tone but:-

I did not assume any lack of training or experience, just lack of reality/logic.
I did not call anyone 'incompetent'.
By using safe riding skills you can control AND educate the motorist.
How does cyclists 'sacrificing' a route benefit motorists?

pedals2slowly
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Re: City centre cycling ban

Postby pedals2slowly » 25 Oct 2018, 2:16pm

mjr wrote:Previously debunked


So because a forum seems to think one way that is proof nowadays is it?