Can Someone Please Have a Word with God…

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reohn2
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Re: Can Someone Please Have a Word with God…

Postby reohn2 » 4 Feb 2019, 4:53pm

Hondated,Cugel.
Consider that God is the all of everything,omnipresent because It can't be anything else,you,me,the space inbetween,the whole shebang,It cannot not Be.
Whether there is life after death is irrelevant because we can't not be,we simply change....
What say you?

PS,FWIW IMO organised religion is a poor and incomplete reflection of God.
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Cugel
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Re: Can Someone Please Have a Word with God…

Postby Cugel » 4 Feb 2019, 6:51pm

reohn2 wrote:HondaTed,Cugel.
Consider that God is the all of everything,omnipresent because It can't be anything else,you,me,the space inbetween,the whole shebang,It cannot not Be.
Whether there is life after death is irrelevant because we can't not be,we simply change....
What say you?

PS,FWIW IMO organised religion is a poor and incomplete reflection of God.


Is that a notion of god as "the laws of nature", perhaps in conjunction with "the whole of the cosmos"? If so, isn't it enough to see them as just laws operating throughout the universe rather than as some sort of personality, as generally portrayed in the concept of a god? This is my problem with the common-or-garden variety of gods: they seem all too human to be anything other than an invention of humans.

Such gods can certainly come to have force in the world (a bit like money or some other human metaphysical construct used to direct & determine human behaviours) but they are not omnipresent, omnipotent or omniscient since we can collapse them any time we like by ceasing to believe in them. Whole cultures and vast historical periods have done without the Judeo-Christian variety, for example. Some former believers often declare that "God is dead" since they have killed Him (in their own minds at least).

In addition, the physical laws of nature, the truths of mathematics and similar organised constructs tending toward the objective don't seem to generate any moral injunctions for humans: a major element in most religions. We can't derive the right way to behave by studying physics, chemistry or cosmology. Even a study of biology fails to establish an unequivocal or universally-appealing morality. Various humans try (eugenicists, survival of the fittest socio-economic laws; master race devotees, etcetera) but none have managed to establish themselves in the way that physics or mathematics have as universal modes used by everyone everywhere in an almost identical way.

As to your notion that "we can't not be" I'm afraid millions have reached that moribund state. Their elemental particles may go on existing but the organisation of them into a human person does not. Even my "ghosts" are a pale shadow of the once-living personalities that generate them; and entirely under the control of my imagination rather than the intents or desires of the dead one.

Organised religions are certainly guilty of many sins, crimes, hypocrisies et al. On the other hand, many humans are reined-in by their membership of a church and it's moral directives, when they might be running amok without them. Sadly, many run amok also because of their membership. Still, many of today's religions are less inclined than they used to be to have inquisitions, witch-burnings and pogroms. These days they seem to direct their morally-suppressed or twisted desires into various kinds of abuse.

Cugel

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hondated
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Re: Can Someone Please Have a Word with God…

Postby hondated » 4 Feb 2019, 10:20pm

reohn2 wrote:Hondated,Cugel.
Consider that God is the all of everything,omnipresent because It can't be anything else,you,me,the space inbetween,the whole shebang,It cannot not Be.
Whether there is life after death is irrelevant because we can't not be,we simply change....
What say you?

PS,FWIW IMO organised religion is a poor and incomplete reflection of God.

John Cugel,

Whilst I think this discussion is becoming more interesting than probably the OP expected it to be my vague understanding certainly cannot add anything to your own opinions.

John I do however agree with your PS as IME experience the most devout of people I have met are usually the less forgiving of those that do wrong.

Are you one of those philvantwo :?
And could God just be our conscience :?

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Re: Can Someone Please Have a Word with God…

Postby reohn2 » 4 Feb 2019, 11:22pm

Cugel wrote:
reohn2 wrote:HondaTed,Cugel.
Consider that God is the all of everything,omnipresent because It can't be anything else,you,me,the space inbetween,the whole shebang,It cannot not Be.
Whether there is life after death is irrelevant because we can't not be,we simply change....
What say you?

PS,FWIW IMO organised religion is a poor and incomplete reflection of God.


Is that a notion of god as "the laws of nature", perhaps in conjunction with "the whole of the cosmos"? If so, isn't it enough to see them as just laws operating throughout the universe rather than as some sort of personality, as generally portrayed in the concept of a god? This is my problem with the common-or-garden variety of gods: they seem all too human to be anything other than an invention of humans.

Such gods can certainly come to have force in the world (a bit like money or some other human metaphysical construct used to direct & determine human behaviours) but they are not omnipresent, omnipotent or omniscient since we can collapse them any time we like by ceasing to believe in them. Whole cultures and vast historical periods have done without the Judeo-Christian variety, for example. Some former believers often declare that "God is dead" since they have killed Him (in their own minds at least).

In addition, the physical laws of nature, the truths of mathematics and similar organised constructs tending toward the objective don't seem to generate any moral injunctions for humans: a major element in most religions. We can't derive the right way to behave by studying physics, chemistry or cosmology. Even a study of biology fails to establish an unequivocal or universally-appealing morality. Various humans try (eugenicists, survival of the fittest socio-economic laws; master race devotees, etcetera) but none have managed to establish themselves in the way that physics or mathematics have as universal modes used by everyone everywhere in an almost identical way.

As to your notion that "we can't not be" I'm afraid millions have reached that moribund state. Their elemental particles may go on existing but the organisation of them into a human person does not. Even my "ghosts" are a pale shadow of the once-living personalities that generate them; and entirely under the control of my imagination rather than the intents or desires of the dead one.

Organised religions are certainly guilty of many sins, crimes, hypocrisies et al. On the other hand, many humans are reined-in by their membership of a church and it's moral directives, when they might be running amok without them. Sadly, many run amok also because of their membership. Still, many of today's religions are less inclined than they used to be to have inquisitions, witch-burnings and pogroms. These days they seem to direct their morally-suppressed or twisted desires into various kinds of abuse.

Cugel

That's a lot of words used to not say very much,perhaps if you read my post again......
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reohn2
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Re: Can Someone Please Have a Word with God…

Postby reohn2 » 4 Feb 2019, 11:33pm

hondated wrote: .......could God just be our conscience :?

It's much more than that,the dot over the i as well as the complete dictionary maybe.

PS,I don't pretend to understand anything,just putting forward a philosophy for the all of everything being described in a three letter word.
IMO our problem is one of knowing a lot but understanding very little,so we make up stories.
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Re: Can Someone Please Have a Word with God…

Postby Cugel » 5 Feb 2019, 9:53am

reohn2 wrote:
Cugel wrote:
reohn2 wrote:HondaTed,Cugel.
Consider that God is the all of everything,omnipresent because It can't be anything else,you,me,the space inbetween,the whole shebang,It cannot not Be.
Whether there is life after death is irrelevant because we can't not be,we simply change....
What say you?

PS,FWIW IMO organised religion is a poor and incomplete reflection of God.


Is that a notion of god as "the laws of nature", perhaps in conjunction with "the whole of the cosmos"? If so, isn't it enough to see them as just laws operating throughout the universe rather than as some sort of personality, as generally portrayed in the concept of a god? This is my problem with the common-or-garden variety of gods: they seem all too human to be anything other than an invention of humans.

Such gods can certainly come to have force in the world (a bit like money or some other human metaphysical construct used to direct & determine human behaviours) but they are not omnipresent, omnipotent or omniscient since we can collapse them any time we like by ceasing to believe in them. Whole cultures and vast historical periods have done without the Judeo-Christian variety, for example. Some former believers often declare that "God is dead" since they have killed Him (in their own minds at least).

In addition, the physical laws of nature, the truths of mathematics and similar organised constructs tending toward the objective don't seem to generate any moral injunctions for humans: a major element in most religions. We can't derive the right way to behave by studying physics, chemistry or cosmology. Even a study of biology fails to establish an unequivocal or universally-appealing morality. Various humans try (eugenicists, survival of the fittest socio-economic laws; master race devotees, etcetera) but none have managed to establish themselves in the way that physics or mathematics have as universal modes used by everyone everywhere in an almost identical way.

As to your notion that "we can't not be" I'm afraid millions have reached that moribund state. Their elemental particles may go on existing but the organisation of them into a human person does not. Even my "ghosts" are a pale shadow of the once-living personalities that generate them; and entirely under the control of my imagination rather than the intents or desires of the dead one.

Organised religions are certainly guilty of many sins, crimes, hypocrisies et al. On the other hand, many humans are reined-in by their membership of a church and it's moral directives, when they might be running amok without them. Sadly, many run amok also because of their membership. Still, many of today's religions are less inclined than they used to be to have inquisitions, witch-burnings and pogroms. These days they seem to direct their morally-suppressed or twisted desires into various kinds of abuse.

Cugel

That's a lot of words used to not say very much,perhaps if you read my post again......


Alas, I cannot read between the lines of cryptic tweet-style. You must elaborate in unambiguous and complete terms. :-)

Cugel the Explicit.

reohn2
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Re: Can Someone Please Have a Word with God…

Postby reohn2 » 5 Feb 2019, 10:36am

Cugel wrote:Alas, I cannot read between the lines of cryptic tweet-style. You must elaborate in unambiguous and complete terms. :-)

Cugel the Explicit.


Alas I can't anymore than you can with a full command of the English language.
To try to explain the all of everything is impossible for a mind as small as mine.
But just to be clear I pledge no alliegence to any religion or a personal God or gods,I'm just trying to somehow grasp the enormity of what seems to be a huge experiment that unfolds and which I'm witnessing for a brief moment of time in the continuum of what is the unavoidable universe.
We humans can't get around it,over it,under it,or through the extent of it's enormity.It's The entity the all of everything,the beginning and the end,should there be a beginning and end IYSWIM.
The religious may say I'm mistaking the creation for the creator,but in the absence of a tangible reference point I'm left with what I can experience with the senses I possess.

On a personal level I've come to expect to be here for a time as a mind and body,which at some point the body will change shape into the earth from which we all came,my continuum will be in my offspring and how I pass on to them the worthwhile of what I've experienced in how I see it and also in a genealogical sense,in the hope of their betterment in the positive,which is in itself an experiment in being as is the all of everything.
That's a poor explanation but it's the best I can do with a puny human understanding
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Re: Can Someone Please Have a Word with God…

Postby hondated » 5 Feb 2019, 3:09pm

reohn2 wrote:
Cugel wrote:Alas, I cannot read between the lines of cryptic tweet-style. You must elaborate in unambiguous and complete terms. :-)

Cugel the Explicit.


Alas I can't anymore than you can with a full command of the English language.
To try to explain the all of everything is impossible for a mind as small as mine.
But just to be clear I pledge no alliegence to any religion or a personal God or gods,I'm just trying to somehow grasp the enormity of what seems to be a huge experiment that unfolds and which I'm witnessing for a brief moment of time in the continuum of what is the unavoidable universe.
We humans can't get around it,over it,under it,or through the extent of it's enormity.It's The entity the all of everything,the beginning and the end,should there be a beginning and end IYSWIM.
The religious may say I'm mistaking the creation for the creator,but in the absence of a tangible reference point I'm left with what I can experience with the senses I possess.

On a personal level I've come to expect to be here for a time as a mind and body,which at some point the body will change shape into the earth from which we all came,my continuum will be in my offspring and how I pass on to them the worthwhile of what I've experienced in how I see it and also in a genealogical sense,in the hope of their betterment in the positive,which is in itself an experiment in being as is the all of everything.
That's a poor explanation but it's the best I can do with a puny human understanding

I must be getting more intelligent John as I understood every word you wrote and agreed with it and the only word I had to Google was IYSWIM :wink:

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Re: Can Someone Please Have a Word with God…

Postby al_yrpal » 5 Feb 2019, 3:35pm

Many peoples views coincide with Humanism. Check it out... https://humanism.org.uk/humanism/how-humanist-are-you/

Al
Touring on a bicycle is a great way to explore and appreciate the countryside and towns you pass through. CTC gone but not forgotten!

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Re: Can Someone Please Have a Word with God…

Postby Cugel » 5 Feb 2019, 4:43pm

hondated wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
Cugel wrote:Alas, I cannot read between the lines of cryptic tweet-style. You must elaborate in unambiguous and complete terms. :-)

Cugel the Explicit.


Alas I can't anymore than you can with a full command of the English language.
To try to explain the all of everything is impossible for a mind as small as mine.
But just to be clear I pledge no alliegence to any religion or a personal God or gods,I'm just trying to somehow grasp the enormity of what seems to be a huge experiment that unfolds and which I'm witnessing for a brief moment of time in the continuum of what is the unavoidable universe.
We humans can't get around it,over it,under it,or through the extent of it's enormity.It's The entity the all of everything,the beginning and the end,should there be a beginning and end IYSWIM.
The religious may say I'm mistaking the creation for the creator,but in the absence of a tangible reference point I'm left with what I can experience with the senses I possess.

On a personal level I've come to expect to be here for a time as a mind and body,which at some point the body will change shape into the earth from which we all came,my continuum will be in my offspring and how I pass on to them the worthwhile of what I've experienced in how I see it and also in a genealogical sense,in the hope of their betterment in the positive,which is in itself an experiment in being as is the all of everything.
That's a poor explanation but it's the best I can do with a puny human understanding

I must be getting more intelligent John as I understood every word you wrote and agreed with it and the only word I had to Google was IYSWIM :wink:


A bit "spiritual" for me but I think I understand something of your post. Perhaps it can be summed in the word Progress (with a capital "P"): the belief that things can progress from less to more ........ what? Or from worse to better ..... what?

Here I stumble a bit with the notion, as the increased complexity in the exudation of the universe that is the human brain is not necessarily part of some teleological intent embedded in the universe but perhaps just a bit of random evolution. Humans may die out (we're busy trying to do away with ourselves and a lot more just now) leaving evolution to produce other exudations of the universe which may or may not contain something like the human brain, with it's self-awareness and ultra-complexity.

After all, entropy will eventually flatten us all to a literal nothing - a state in which there is no differentiation of anything from anything else. Many physicists see the progressively increasing differentiation and complexity of universe-stuff as a process bound to go into reverse if the notion of entropy does represent a real law of physics.

****
But in the short term it would be a wunnerful thing if progress could include a betterment of the human condition - perhaps as a manifestation of a civilization that managed to reduce or expunge it's more (self) destructive urges. Steven Pinker and others of his belief see this as happening. Others believe the Pinkerism is a delusion of somewhat Utopian academics counting one lot of statistics (about the nice humans) but not counting the other statistics (about the nasty humans).

And then there's the question of what determines nice and nasty humans? Is there a universal morality or other schema of right and wrong that is universal and true for all humans? Many believe so (especially the believers in monotheistic gods) whilst others feel that humans can invent endless moral codes, most of which contradict the demands of their rivals. And none of which are the objectively correct set, since no such set can ever be defined (except by an omnipotent god).

One of us posting here refers to the idea that morality and the god-figure representing it's authority is perhaps just "our conscience". But this begs the question: what formed our conscience? Also: does every human's conscience result in the same set of morality rules and appropriate behaviours?

I would answer that my conscience is formed at base by evolution but is highly varied by the influences of culture and upbringing in that culture. Those not like us in history and in geography can have hugely different moral structures and strictures, despite us all being humans evolved in the same way. Our moral rules come from social and cultural institutions and histories vastly different one from another. consider C21st British cyclists versus Aztecs of the C14th, for example.

Alas, this means your wish to pass on your spirit in the form of hoped for betterments to your offspring (and perhaps the world at large) may be difficult to fulfill. There is nothing to measure "betterment" against except your personal/cultural notions of better. These may be flawed, as so many human notions and behaviours are, because of inherent contradictions, unforeseen consequences and a whole host of other unpredictable effects.

But how else can any human behave? All of us, even those the majority regard as mad or criminal, probably have the ambition to make things better .... by our own parameters defing "better". Many a right-wing and left-wing dictator has thought himself the true destiny of humanity. Even the "moderates" find themselves causing dire consequences with their good intentions.

It's no easy thing to be a human, with all the responsibilities we identify for ourselves. Maybe that's another reason for inventing a god? We can lay it all off on him or her.

Cugel

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Re: Can Someone Please Have a Word with God…

Postby reohn2 » 5 Feb 2019, 5:05pm

Cugel
I can't argue with any of that,except perhaps the last sentence,in that he all of everything needn't be invented it's evident in front,behind above and below us,in fact it is us,for better(ment) or worse,in sickness and in health,we are inextricably wedded to it it's within and without us,whether we like it or not.
One thing I'm increasingly aware of,as you indicate,we as a species can't last at the rate were going at.IMO the universe has a way of equalising itself and the human race may be coming to the end of itself.
We're appear to be a species simply to clever for it's own good and not wise enough to realise it.
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Re: Can Someone Please Have a Word with God…

Postby reohn2 » 5 Feb 2019, 5:11pm

al_yrpal wrote:Many peoples views coincide with Humanism. Check it out... https://humanism.org.uk/humanism/how-humanist-are-you/

Al

Apparently according to that survey I'm 100% humanist.
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Re: Can Someone Please Have a Word with God…

Postby al_yrpal » 5 Feb 2019, 5:46pm

reohn2 wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:Many peoples views coincide with Humanism. Check it out... https://humanism.org.uk/humanism/how-humanist-are-you/

Al

Apparently according to that survey I'm 100% humanist.


And me. The organisation now headed by Alice Roberts is a bit political so I havent joined it although I agree with its aims.

Al
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Re: Can Someone Please Have a Word with God…

Postby Oldjohnw » 5 Feb 2019, 6:00pm

I consider myself a Christian humanist. Doubt is an integral part of my faith.
John

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reohn2
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Re: Can Someone Please Have a Word with God…

Postby reohn2 » 5 Feb 2019, 6:46pm

al_yrpal wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:Many peoples views coincide with Humanism. Check it out... https://humanism.org.uk/humanism/how-humanist-are-you/

Al

Apparently according to that survey I'm 100% humanist.


And me. The organisation now headed by Alice Roberts is a bit political so I havent joined it although I agree with its aims.

Al

Anything with Alice Roberts involved can't be all bad :)
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