It's far too dangerous to cycle on the road

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londoncommuter0000
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Re: It's far too dangerous to cycle on the road

Postby londoncommuter0000 » 4 Feb 2019, 8:31am

Tizme wrote:Around here the council are not even gritting the roads any more!


A while back, in a place not so far from here, I had to go to my mother's street to clear a path for her so that she could get from her back door to a taxi to take her to the shops. No effort had been made to grit her street - or any other street around. The footway was like an ice rink.

Later that day, I wandered a bit and ended up at the street where the council leader lived. His street - carriageway and footway - was clear of snow. I wrote to the council to ask for an explanation. My letter was ignored. I went to the council offices and approached a member of the council and asked very politely for an explanation. The person whom I had challenged called for a policeman and demanded that I be arrested as I was being 'abusive'.
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hondated
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Re: It's far too dangerous to cycle on the road

Postby hondated » 4 Feb 2019, 11:07am

londoncommuter0000 wrote:
Tizme wrote:Around here the council are not even gritting the roads any more!


A while back, in a place not so far from here, I had to go to my mother's street to clear a path for her so that she could get from her back door to a taxi to take her to the shops. No effort had been made to grit her street - or any other street around. The footway was like an ice rink.

Later that day, I wandered a bit and ended up at the street where the council leader lived. His street - carriageway and footway - was clear of snow. I wrote to the council to ask for an explanation. My letter was ignored. I went to the council offices and approached a member of the council and asked very politely for an explanation. The person whom I had challenged called for a policeman and demanded that I be arrested as I was being 'abusive'.

I can concur with that. Concur where'd that come from !
Where we lived before we lived here we were surprised to find in our first Winter there that our road was kept clear of snow as soon as it began to fall. This was very surprising as our previous house was in New Addington and has one main road onto the estate and for years those living there struggled to in or off the estate when the snow fell.I should add here that we now lived a mile from the road onto the estate. Intrigued and just like you I found that a councillor lived in our road. Now of cause we live in sunshine Eastbourne and as yet have not seen snow.

londoncommuter0000
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Re: It's far too dangerous to cycle on the road

Postby londoncommuter0000 » 4 Feb 2019, 11:37am

hondated wrote:
londoncommuter0000 wrote:
Tizme wrote:Around here the council are not even gritting the roads any more!


A while back, in a place not so far from here, I had to go to my mother's street to clear a path for her so that she could get from her back door to a taxi to take her to the shops. No effort had been made to grit her street - or any other street around. The footway was like an ice rink.

Later that day, I wandered a bit and ended up at the street where the council leader lived. His street - carriageway and footway - was clear of snow. I wrote to the council to ask for an explanation. My letter was ignored. I went to the council offices and approached a member of the council and asked very politely for an explanation. The person whom I had challenged called for a policeman and demanded that I be arrested as I was being 'abusive'.

I can concur with that. Concur where'd that come from !
Where we lived before we lived here we were surprised to find in our first Winter there that our road was kept clear of snow as soon as it began to fall. This was very surprising as our previous house was in New Addington and has one main road onto the estate and for years those living there struggled to in or off the estate when the snow fell.I should add here that we now lived a mile from the road onto the estate. Intrigued and just like you I found that a councillor lived in our road. Now of cause we live in sunshine Eastbourne and as yet have not seen snow.


There's a street near here, which has speed bumps on it. It's not a particularly 'fast' road, and I've not heard of any fatal accidents. And there are relatively few other streets around with speed bumps. I'm willing to bet good money that there is either a councillor living there (or who did live there at the time the speed bumps were installed), or someone else with money or influence (or both).
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atoz
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Re: It's far too dangerous to cycle on the road

Postby atoz » 4 Feb 2019, 12:52pm

MikeF wrote:
[XAP]Bob wrote:
MikeF wrote:Unfortunately that's the norm. Even heavily used key pavements are never salted. And yet walking (and cycling) are promoted and encouraged by government and councils. :roll:


Which government or council promotes cycling/walking?

They might *say* they do, but actions demonstratebotherwise
I think you will find most (all?) councils encourage and promote cycling/walking, eg

Surrey CC Cycling Strategy
6. We will promote and encourage cycling, as an affordable, healthy and environmentally friendly means of transport,


Sevenoaks District Cycling Strategy
4.5 Promotion and Encouragement


These examples were picked at random. What do local councils in your area say?

However what most councils don't do is provide and enable people to cycle/walk ie they don't commit to physically doing anything so that people can use these means of transport. That is what is critically wrong.


Our local council has produced a pretty publication showing what it would like to do to promote cycling- graphics featuring cycle routes looking like London Underground transport map. Very nice. Only problem is their local development plans will involve residential building in areas whose infrastructure can't support it, where most people drive, and where the public transport isn't adequate. Those particular areas are ideal for access (5-10 mins away) to the local motorway so using cars is really a non-brainer. There are no likely candidates for cycle routes in these areas that don't involve really busy roads or very hilly routes, or both. My guess is that we will get a few not so good cycle routes for the local housing estates, where a lot don't drive, and that will be it.

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Re: It's far too dangerous to cycle on the road

Postby mjr » 4 Feb 2019, 12:55pm

Ah but are those instances preferential treatment for councillors as you seem to be suggesting, or simply that councillors bother to contact the council in the right way to get what should be happening anyway? Possibly more of the second than the first, I suspect.

Once upon a time, you could ask the Standards Board to check, but Cameron abolished that.
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hondated
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Re: It's far too dangerous to cycle on the road

Postby hondated » 4 Feb 2019, 1:30pm

mjr wrote:Ah but are those instances preferential treatment for councillors as you seem to be suggesting, or simply that councillors bother to contact the council in the right way to get what should be happening anyway? Possibly more of the second than the first, I suspect.

Once upon a time, you could ask the Standards Board to check, but Cameron abolished that.

Thats interesting I didn't know about that.

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hondated
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Re: It's far too dangerous to cycle on the road

Postby hondated » 4 Feb 2019, 1:50pm

Mentioned it in another thread before but perhaps worth repeating in this thread.
Down here in Eastbourne we have a cycle path along part of the promenade and then it suddenly stops. Even though we have a bike hire scheme.
Part of the route we are not allowed to cycle is admittedly narrow in one particular place but there is a lot more where cycling would not inconvenience anyone.
Last year I happened to meet the founder of our local Bespoke group and she said that they had advised the council on how easily the narrow part could be rectified, moving parking spaces, but they seemed to be reluctant to do so as our local walking group were against the idea and had " influential " friends on the council.

Her motivation for campaigning to cycle all the way along the front was that when her children were young she found herself cycling with them to school in heavy traffic rather than safely along a cycle path.

Whilst I would not think of doing it during the Summer season at this time of year myself and a friend do sometimes cycle down to a café on the Prom

and it never ceases to amaze me the few people we do pass that have to say to whoever they are with " they're not allowed to cycle along here ".

Often wonder whether we need a Kinder Scout " moment !

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Re: It's far too dangerous to cycle on the road

Postby MikeF » 4 Feb 2019, 6:53pm

kwackers wrote:I was tootling along quite nicely on the well gritted and safe road and saw two cyclists putting themselves at risk of injury or worse trying to make head way on the trampled and frozen snow covered pavement.

Whilst traffic generally gave me some space I couldn't help but spot that they got less space than me, drivers generally discounting them because they were on the pavement, yet there was probably more danger of them falling over and into the path of a vehicle than me.

IMO there's no question that in times like these the roads are vastly safer than the pavements (and cycle paths).
Guess it takes all sorts.
But that's exactly what's wrong. Are you suggesting pedestrians use the roads because they have been salted and pavements haven't? If the aim is to "encourage" people to walk then conditions need to be made suitable for them to do so. If the aim is to prioritise walking and cycling then those facilities need to be prioritised.
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Re: It's far too dangerous to cycle on the road

Postby MikeF » 4 Feb 2019, 7:00pm

Cugel wrote:....... As various local politicians around the world are begining to realise, there is no reason why publicly-owned & maintained infrastructure should be devoted entirely to one class of citizen .........l
Using that argument there is no reason why motor vehicles shouldn't use pavements. :wink:
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Re: It's far too dangerous to cycle on the road

Postby mjr » 4 Feb 2019, 8:14pm

MikeF wrote:
Cugel wrote:....... As various local politicians around the world are begining to realise, there is no reason why publicly-owned & maintained infrastructure should be devoted entirely to one class of citizen .........l
Using that argument there is no reason why motor vehicles shouldn't use pavements. :wink:

A hell of a lot of them do, some driving along at speed because they don't want to wait behind someone waiting to turn right :(
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Re: It's far too dangerous to cycle on the road

Postby kwackers » 4 Feb 2019, 8:41pm

MikeF wrote:But that's exactly what's wrong. Are you suggesting pedestrians use the roads because they have been salted and pavements haven't? If the aim is to "encourage" people to walk then conditions need to be made suitable for them to do so. If the aim is to prioritise walking and cycling then those facilities need to be prioritised.

That's not what I'm suggesting at all.

Having said that I don't have a problem walking on crunchy frozen snow, but when conditions have been treacherous then I'm more than happy to walk in the road.

My point was nothing other than the simply observation that it wasn't too dangerous to cycle on the road, in fact it was far safer than cycling on the pavement.
Be nice to get cyclists off the pavements if we could though, I must admit of late there seems to be more and more of them and they ride like they're on the road.

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Re: It's far too dangerous to cycle on the road

Postby Cugel » 5 Feb 2019, 9:48am

mjr wrote:
MikeF wrote:
Cugel wrote:....... As various local politicians around the world are begining to realise, there is no reason why publicly-owned & maintained infrastructure should be devoted entirely to one class of citizen .........l
Using that argument there is no reason why motor vehicles shouldn't use pavements. :wink:

A hell of a lot of them do, some driving along at speed because they don't want to wait behind someone waiting to turn right :(


Pavements are not made as suitable ways for cars. Roads, on the other hand, were all originally made for pedestrians, horses and bicycles. The car has annexed the roads not via a legal demarcation but by the terror they induce in anyone walking in the road.........

..........But not everywhere. West Wales has been something of a change to NW England in this respect. Few walk anywhere in NW England when about daily tasks or life, such as shopping. Where we used to live, virtually all would drive 400 yards & back to the Spa shop rather than walk. In West Wales there are dozens walking from the village or town centres back to their houses on the outskirts with the shopping.

On the bike ride yesterday, on the yellow roads through Brechfa Forest and down in the Teifi Valley, me and t'ladywife came across many pedestrians in the roads. Way up in the hilly tops, we came across (on two separate occasions) small groups of mums pushing the babes in prams whilst walking the toddlers and dogs. They were literally miles from the nearest village but were having a good time walking & chatting. No passing car or cyclist tried to run them off the road. In fact, the drivers around here are, for the greatest part, very considerate of others, even we rare cyclists.

But West Wales is old-fashioned and hasn't got the thrusting me-my-I thing now prevalent in mainstream Blighty and it's modern kultures. Civilisation is alive and well out west. :-)

Cugel

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Re: It's far too dangerous to cycle on the road

Postby MikeF » 5 Feb 2019, 4:46pm

MikeF wrote:
Cugel wrote:....... As various local politicians around the world are begining to realise, there is no reason why publicly-owned & maintained infrastructure should be devoted entirely to one class of citizen .........l
Using that argument there is no reason why motor vehicles shouldn't use pavements. :wink:
Cugel wrote:
Pavements are not made as suitable ways for cars. Roads, on the other hand, were all originally made for pedestrians, horses and bicycles. The car has annexed the roads not via a legal demarcation but by the terror they induce in anyone walking in the road.........

..........
Pavements may not be made suitable for cars but they are devoted entirely to one class of citizen as are public footpaths (as opposed to footways).
I'm not sure of the definition of a road, but even in the 1835 Highways Act roads were classed as highways together with other highways; each type of highway was not defined.

Roads were not made for the use of bicycles or even velocipedes. They were in existence a long time before that. Also they were used by carts and carriages of all descriptions and for driving animals and so on. The car has not annexed the roads as such in the sense it is a carriage but Lord Brabazon thinking wanted it to annexe them.
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Re: It's far too dangerous to cycle on the road

Postby mjr » 5 Feb 2019, 4:57pm

MikeF wrote:I'm not sure of the definition of a road, but even in the 1835 Highways Act roads were classed as highways together with other highways; each type of highway was not defined.

"“road”— (a) in England and Wales, means any length of highway or of any other road to which the public has access, and includes bridges over which a road passes" -- http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/section/142

That's recursion. To understand recursion, you must first understand recursion.
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Re: It's far too dangerous to cycle on the road

Postby MikeF » 5 Feb 2019, 10:40pm

mjr wrote:
MikeF wrote:I'm not sure of the definition of a road, but even in the 1835 Highways Act roads were classed as highways together with other highways; each type of highway was not defined.

"“road”— (a) in England and Wales, means any length of highway or of any other road to which the public has access, and includes bridges over which a road passes" -- http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/section/142

That's recursion. To understand recursion, you must first understand recursion.
Er well yes. That's a definition of a highway. To me that effectively states any highway is a road - I think.
The 1835 Act is somewhat more explicit in that it states what is a highway. "..that the word "Highways" shall be understood to mean all Roads, Bridges (not being County Bridges),Carriageways, Cartways, Horseways, Bridleways, Footways, Causeways, Churchways, and Pavements;" Effectively the reverse of the 1988 Act.
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