Something new to watch out for! - suspiciously fast (motor-)bicycles

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Stradageek
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Something new to watch out for! - suspiciously fast (motor-)bicycles

Post by Stradageek »

Cycling towards a familiar roundabout, check in my mirror for cars trying to exercise a last minute overtake when I'm suddenly buzzed by an electric bike clocking nearly 30mph.

I'm not sure where he came from (he possibly hopped off the adjacent cycle patch because he went back onto the cycle path after the roundabout) but I certainly didn't expect to have to be wary of such a beastie.

I believe you can fool the electric bike 15mph limit by simply telling the motor controller that your 29" wheel is actually 16", anyone else had this problem?
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Something new to watch out for!

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
Yeah Seen it all before, the trouble with that sort of speed is that it is finite on the battery.
I mostly catch all the pedalecs And leave them behind :)
The one that did get away I just overtaken Then he blasted past me twice my speed :evil:
Was tracking him down then he turned off to his house :(
The one that got away.
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Cyril Haearn
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Re: Something new to watch out for!

Post by Cyril Haearn »

E-bikes are faster
Speed=danger :(
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RickH
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Re: Something new to watch out for!

Post by RickH »

One time we were doing 20+mph on the tandem along the seafront heading into New Brighton on the Wirral when we were passed by a guy on a mountain bike going significantly faster than us (I'd guess around 30mph), on the flat, without pedalling!

(Edit: had typed "on" at start & should have put "one")
Last edited by RickH on 22 Feb 2019, 10:35pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cugel
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Re: Something new to watch out for!

Post by Cugel »

Cyril Haearn wrote:E-bikes are faster
Speed=danger :(


Better not move at all then. :-)

E-bikes are not faster per se than ordinary bikes. You might manage to go a bit faster up a hill on one than the fellow on the unassisted version of the bike - until you reach 25kph. Above that speed you will be marginally slower on the slight rises and more or less the same on the flat and downhill.

I know these things from experience, having ridden the ladywife's e-bike on a couple of club runs and having ridden with her on many rides now, she on e-bike and me not.

But perhaps you're meaning those bicycle-shaped objects that have electric motors configured in moped fashion? These are not e-bikes but e-mopeds. They require all the hoops and hurdles to be jumped through that having an ordinary moped requires - insurance, number plates, helmet et al.

Some hack e-bike control software to enable assistance above 25kph. This makes them e-mopeds, which if used without jumping through the above-mentioned hoops and hurdles is a criminal offense.

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Cugel
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Re: Something new to watch out for!

Post by Cugel »

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
Yeah Seen it all before, the trouble with that sort of speed is that it is finite on the battery.
I mostly catch all the pedalecs And leave them behind :)
The one that did get away I just overtaken Then he blasted past me twice my speed :evil:
Was tracking him down then he turned off to his house :(
The one that got away.

Careful - someone may spot your speedy over-competitive antic and delay you with a press of the Pelican crossing button! I would, in case you might otherwise run over someone's pussycat or even their slower granny. :-)

Did I tell you about the time I saw that Broody Wiggles and left him behind? And that Chas Vroome. Yeah, showed them.

Cugel, trying out big boast mode.
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kwackers
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Re: Something new to watch out for!

Post by kwackers »

Stradageek wrote:I believe you can fool the electric bike 15mph limit by simply telling the motor controller that your 29" wheel is actually 16", anyone else had this problem?

On mine you can put it on either L4 or 5 assist then press in the thumb throttle. For some reason at that point it then completely ignores the speed limit and also manages to dig out more power until you leave go again.

As a converted tourer with a mid drive motor and a well hidden battery it's not that obvious. The motor would be the only give away and that's usually hidden by my feet and the panniers.

Got a great video from my rear camera of an obviously fit bloke on his hi-tech carbon bike desperately trying to keep up with the grey haired bloke on a tourer resplendent with panniers, mudguards and all the other tat old fogies like to adorn their bikes with.
I do make it look convincing by keeping the cadence up and giving it some welly to help the motor though. ;)
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Redvee
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Re: Something new to watch out for!

Post by Redvee »

Had this creep up on my and thought being an e-bike I'd be able to keep up with it and possibly pass it.

[youtube]jr8TnqGb9Gc[/youtube]

Alas not, my legs got to 20mph and I was a dot on the horizon :(
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The utility cyclist
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Re: Something new to watch out for!

Post by The utility cyclist »

Cugel wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:E-bikes are faster
Speed=danger :(


Better not move at all then. :-)

E-bikes are not faster per se than ordinary bikes. You might manage to go a bit faster up a hill on one than the fellow on the unassisted version of the bike - until you reach 25kph. Above that speed you will be marginally slower on the slight rises and more or less the same on the flat and downhill.

I know these things from experience, having ridden the ladywife's e-bike on a couple of club runs and having ridden with her on many rides now, she on e-bike and me not.

But perhaps you're meaning those bicycle-shaped objects that have electric motors configured in moped fashion? These are not e-bikes but e-mopeds. They require all the hoops and hurdles to be jumped through that having an ordinary moped requires - insurance, number plates, helmet et al.

Some hack e-bike control software to enable assistance above 25kph. This makes them e-mopeds, which if used without jumping through the above-mentioned hoops and hurdles is a criminal offense.

Cugel

Well they allow people to go faster than they could do ordinarily in many situations, this includes on the flat, if you've got assistance then you are using less effort elsewhere, that means you can go significantly faster over your ride, this is a fact that you cannot deny (or maybe you will somehow?).
On occasion significantly faster, such that even in the country with the greatest rate of cycling, we have seen significant increases in deaths in the high% e-bike user groups whilst deaths in the other groups that don't buy e-bikes anywhere near as much have dropped in the same period.

The problem as we see with motorcyclists/moped users is that you have forward motion on tap without effort, even here on this very forum members have noted what a buzz this gives and you have speed that you're not used to (or have not had for a long time) which cuts down your thinking time, people aren't used to making those important decisions because they've arrived earlier than they would.

They also have greater braking distances too with that extra speed plus on top of that you have others who see a 'bike' and can misjudge the speed, this we see with ordinary bikes, being assisted and the way people make assumptions this will only increase with e-bikes.

I'm not against e-bikes, I just think that the top speeds of them are too high for a significant number of users that has safety implications as well as giving the opportunity to crack the power train just as people did BITD on 50cc mopeds
kwackers
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Re: Something new to watch out for!

Post by kwackers »

The utility cyclist wrote:They also have greater braking distances too with that extra speed plus on top of that you have others who see a 'bike' and can misjudge the speed, this we see with ordinary bikes, being assisted and the way people make assumptions this will only increase with e-bikes.

How can that not help ordinary bike riders?
More eBikes, faster average speeds, other road users getting used to faster bikes.
Sounds like a win win.
The utility cyclist wrote:I'm not against e-bikes, I just think that the top speeds of them are too high for a significant number of users that has safety implications as well as giving the opportunity to crack the power train just as people did BITD on 50cc mopeds

Yep, folk can't handle 15mph on a bicycle. It's just too fast for them, lets get them back driving at 30+ mph in 2 tons of vehicle where they belong then we can all rest easy.

"crack the power train" - lol.
I remember our attempts at "cracking the power train" on our mopeds. They certainly sounded faster but the truth was they were often slower.
Turns out an idiot with a file tackling the port on a two stroke did a lot less for the performance than you might think. :lol:

Having said that, eBikes are amongst the easiest vehicles on the road to 'hack' and make faster. But don't worry, PC plod will soon be rounding them all up (plus hassling any other cyclists that happen to nip over 15mph).
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Cunobelin
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Re: Something new to watch out for!

Post by Cunobelin »

Cyril Haearn wrote:E-bikes are faster
Speed=danger :(



Not by the evidence.......

They are regulated at 15 mph, so slower than many other cyclists

SO by your logic....

Road bikes are faster
Speed = Danger
Cyril Haearn
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Re: Something new to watch out for!

Post by Cyril Haearn »

15 mph? The OP mentioned nearly double that :?
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Gattonero
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Re: Something new to watch out for!

Post by Gattonero »

There's a couple of problems with e-bikes and e-scooters and e-skateboards alike:
-almost instant acceleration
-brakes that aren't upgraded
-user that may not be used to ride at such speed

Been able to go from zero to 20mph in a couple of seconds, anytime and anywhere, can be bliss for some but fear for others.
IMO, the should be strict regulations for any motor over 250w (just like there should be more fines levied on those stupid ones riding like nutters on non-assisted bikes)
It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best,
since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them.
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Cugel
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Re: Something new to watch out for!

Post by Cugel »

The utility cyclist wrote:
Cugel wrote:
E-bikes are not faster per se than ordinary bikes. ... (snip)


Well they allow people to go faster than they could do ordinarily in many situations, this includes on the flat, if you've got assistance then you are using less effort elsewhere, that means you can go significantly faster over your ride, this is a fact that you cannot deny (or maybe you will somehow?).


An e-bike will allow person A to go faster than they would for the same effort on an ordinary bike .... up to 15.5 mph and no faster. To do so, they need to be pedaling and inputting some watts of their own. All e-bikes cease to add motor assist if you stop pedaling. We are talking e-bikes, not pedalecs or e-mopeds.

Most e-bikes have strain gauges in the BB or elsewhere that meter the user's input of watts when calculating how many to add from the motor. For example, the ladywife's Focus Parlane2 will add up to 125 watts to her effort in middle-assist mode. But if she isn't pedaling very hard herself, she will get only a fraction of the potential 125 watt assist.

So, as we go about together, she can keep up with me on the hills in mid-assist level. In higher-assist mode she can get up to 250 watts, but she doesn't as I can keep her in sight with my circa 230 watts of man-thrust. I estimate she's getting about 150 watts and adding her own 100+ watts.

When I go out on her e-bike, I can get it to give me full power when I pedal as hard as I can. Typically I get to 15.5mph very quickly and suddenly feel the extra effort needed as the motor disengages. Once more I am an ordinary cyclist on an ordinary bike.

At the levels me and t-ladywife cycle about, we are only doing around 6-9mph up significant hills. As the hill flattens she can go away a bit more in full power - until she gets to 15.5mph, when the motor disengages. I immediately catch up. At best she can do 20mph on the flat, often a bit less. I can do 25mph and perhaps a bit more.

You can suggest that this is somehow too fast for the ladywife but you'd be wrong. it's just ordinary cycling speeds. Moreover, above 15.5mph she is at a slight disadvantage as her e-bike weighs 4 kilos more than my winter bike.

The utility cyclist wrote: On occasion significantly faster, such that even in the country with the greatest rate of cycling, we have seen significant increases in deaths in the high% e-bike user groups whilst deaths in the other groups that don't buy e-bikes anywhere near as much have dropped in the same period.


As I understand it, the increase in deaths and injuries amongst older fellows in Holland is mostly to those riding pedelecs or e-mopeds rather than e-bikes as they're defined above and in Blighty generally. They are charging about at 30mph on mixed walking/cyling facilities and come croppers because of the large speed differential and their inability to ride competently at 30mph in such an environment.

The utility cyclist wrote:The problem as we see with motorcyclists/moped users is that you have forward motion on tap without effort, ... (snip).


Not on an e-bike you don't. See above. You must pedal quite hard to obtain significant e-bike motor assistance. No one can sit on an e-bike and just twist a throttle. That's a pedalec or e-moped. Riding an e-bike is just like riding an ordinary bike except your legs feel a bit stronger. People who ride e-bikes are typically not fully-fit cyclists and tend to go no faster (often slower) than club cyclists and similar.

The utility cyclist wrote:They also have greater braking distances too with that extra speed plus on top of that you have others who see a 'bike' and can misjudge the speed, this we see with ordinary bikes, being assisted and the way people make assumptions this will only increase with e-bikes.


Simply not so. See above.

The utility cyclist wrote:I'm not against e-bikes, I just think that the top speeds of them are too high for a significant number of users that has safety implications as well as giving the opportunity to crack the power train just as people did BITD on 50cc mopeds


You don't seem to know what an e-bike can and can't do. I suggest you borrow one and ride it for a while. As to the "cracking" of the power train - that's illegal and irrelevant to the configuration of an e-bike as sold and intended.

Cugel
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Cugel
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Re: Something new to watch out for!

Post by Cugel »

Gattonero wrote:There's a couple of problems with e-bikes and e-scooters and e-skateboards alike:
-almost instant acceleration
-brakes that aren't upgraded
-user that may not be used to ride at such speed

Been able to go from zero to 20mph in a couple of seconds, anytime and anywhere, can be bliss for some but fear for others.
IMO, the should be strict regulations for any motor over 250w (just like there should be more fines levied on those stupid ones riding like nutters on non-assisted bikes)


That sounds more like a motorbike. I've never come across an e-bike that can accelerate from 0 - 20mph in a couple of seconds. 0-15.5mph in quite a few seconds, typically. Then the motor cuts out and the rider will need to be fairly fit to get up to 20mph, especially in just a couple of seconds.

Cugel
“Practical men who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence are usually the slaves of some defunct economist”.
John Maynard Keynes
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