Something new to watch out for! - suspiciously fast (motor-)bicycles

[The utility cyclist]

Interesting! If they’re ‘crazy fast’ they’re probably illegal, they should be limited to 15.5 mph, that ain’t fast!

Charlies Alliston was convicted of wanton and furious for travelling at between 10 and 14mph when the pedestrian and he collided, read the numerous descriptives of his speed.
15.5mph might not be fast for some, but for many who have not ridden a bike for 30 years and more or have never even being able to travel at that speed it IS 'fast'. Being able to do that speed barely turning the pedals around and having the acceleration is akin to being a moped rider, numerous times posters on here have mentioned how exhilarating it was to go faster than they normally could. Personally I think the top speed should be 12mph and with that increased range.

Speed variants just accentuate the exhilaration factor even more, the acceleration is even greater from what I have seen of them, sure, downhill a few bike riders might hit 30mph in urban areas but that is going to be extremely rare and on the flat even fewer will be doing that speed. Those that can ARE used to travelling faster, they have honed their skills and for the most part are restricted by physical fitness and are still having to work hard on the flat to get to 25mph on urban roads and having to stop start (or significantly) slow down, and frequently.

That's part of the built in safety factor for people powering themselves by their legs (or hands) alone.

[kwackers]

Charlies Alliston was convicted of wanton and furious for travelling at between 10 and 14mph when the pedestrian and he collided, read the numerous descriptives of his speed.

Charles Alliston was convicted of wanton and furious cycling because there was nothing else to charge him with.
His speed wasn't an issue, his lack of brakes and reliance on shouting was.

15mph isn't fast. You don't need to be very fit to do that.

I also find odd the idea that it's dangerous because the people doing it aren't used to going that fast...
Really?
So how exactly are they riding these bikes? Are they gingerly tootling round at 5mph and then perhaps once a month pressing 'turbo' and disappearing screaming into the distance barely hanging on?

I'd suggest that riding round at 15mph you'll be used to it within a few hours riding tops (minutes if you've actually ridden a bike before).
Once you've survived that initial life threatening period (despite probably taking it easy and being nervous) then it'll probably feel as tame as 15mph actually is rather than the apparent assumption by others that it's completely outside of your ability to comprehend and control.

Same probably can't be said for your average mamil who finds the occasional downhill to whizz along at 30-40mph since such things are indeed rare.

[MikeF]

Are they gingerly tootling round at 5mph .........

But of course. Faster than that is dangerous or reckless. Every non cyclist knows that.

[oliverpolden]

I would like to see 20mph as the limit, same as the US. Especially in London, a lot of the speed limits for cars are 20mph so I would personally feel safer being able to go the same speed as traffic.

The problem is, I do actually agree that the limit should be 15.6mph while on cycle paths because you're closer to other cyclists and pedestrians that may cross without looking.

If we could have some sort of speed setting, 15.6mph for on cycle paths and 20mph on roads then that would be great, but really difficult to enforce.

There's a petition for 20mph here if anyone wants to sign it: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/260665

[Marcus Aurelius]

Cycling towards a familiar roundabout, check in my mirror for cars trying to exercise a last minute overtake when I'm suddenly buzzed by an electric bike clocking nearly 30mph.

I'm not sure where he came from (he possibly hopped off the adjacent cycle patch because he went back onto the cycle path after the roundabout) but I certainly didn't expect to have to be wary of such a beastie.

I believe you can fool the electric bike 15mph limit by simply telling the motor controller that your 29" wheel is actually 16", anyone else had this problem?

It’s becoming an increasingly common problem. I had a rider, in the ‘uniform’ of a well known food courier company, on an illegally modded e-bike fly past me, and the car which had just overtaken me, the other night, on my way home. I was clocking 23mph, and he went past me like I was riding backwards. I think there was a recent court case, where an illegally modded e-bike rider was prosecuted, after he caused an accident. E-bikes are great, I love the idea, but idiots like this, are going to end up causing issues, which are going to end up causing legislation, which will put ordinary folk ( the sort who we increasingly need to be using these bikes ) off doing so.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Come to London and see how fast
those things can go. It's crazy and dangerous.

Very true.

[reohn2]

I would like to see 20mph as the limit, same as the US. Especially in London, a lot of the speed limits for cars are 20mph so I would personally feel safer being able to go the same speed as traffic.

The problem is, I do actually agree that the limit should be 15.6mph while on cycle paths because you're closer to other cyclists and pedestrians that may cross without looking.

If we could have some sort of speed setting, 15.6mph for on cycle paths and 20mph on roads then that would be great, but really difficult to enforce.

There's a petition for 20mph here if anyone wants to sign it: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/260665

It's never going to happen because there's no votes in it,there's no votes in it because too many people treat cycling and cyclists with contempt,whether that be motorists or pedestrians.
They're in the minority but it's growing and it's very vocal,and it can't be denied that some of it is cyclist's own fault.I try my utmost to be an ambassador for cycling by being courteous,considerate to others whether on the road or when riding off road,but occasionally(far more than occasionally with motorists,in fact almost every time I ride on the road)I come up against the most obnoxious people hell bent on making my life as a cyclist as difficult as they can.

EDIT,to add:- on Monday I met a chap in his 50's(so not a yoof) on an electric fat bike,it came out in conversation that the bike was illegal,500w motor capable of 25mph,he told me he regularly visits his lady friend 12miles away mostly uphill and uses the throttle all the way there,which flattens the battery,he then charges it whilst there and rides home on it,he was boasting how great it was not to have pedal up hill at 20odd mph.
No licence,no reg plates,no insurance other than his household insurance,which I'm fairly sure would be void if he was in a collision.
The problem is one of policing.

[hemo]

I love the idea, but idiots like this, are going to end up causing issues, which are going to end up causing legislation, which will put ordinary folk ( the sort who we increasingly need to be using these bikes ) off doing so.

Legislation is already in place and covered by the law.
Pedelecs with 250w rated motors are allowed and restricted to 15.5mph/25km/h some argue that there is 10% speed leeway.
Any bikes outside of these regulations are covered by law and are classes at mopeds and would be dealt with as such which is riding an unlicensed moped. There is a speed class of pedelecs (up to 28mph) which is legal to use if registered and insured.
What you might see is a blanket ban on ebikes using national parks etc but this will be very hard to police.

[The utility cyclist]

Pedelecs are already too fast for many users at 25km/h, the speed should be lowered further which would extend the range. We've already seen in the two biggest e-bike using/buying countries that more bought does not equal more cycle journeys/modal share overall and thus are not replacing cars, the higher speed would make such an insignificant difference with regards to journeys but it would increase the danger even further than it already does.

[kwackers]

Pedelecs are already too fast for many users at 25km/h, the speed should be lowered further which would extend the range. We've already seen in the two biggest e-bike using/buying countries that more bought does not equal more cycle journeys/modal share overall and thus are not replacing cars, the higher speed would make such an insignificant difference with regards to journeys but it would increase the danger even further than it already does.

Bicycles are already too fast for many users too.

I think if someone can't handle a bicycle or pedelec at 15mph they're probably not safe to be out without supervision.
I mean - this is 15mph, fifteen miles per hour. As a nearly 60 year old bloke I can run on my own legs faster than that and nobody questions my safety.

Fortunately grandfather rights will almost certainly apply if folk like you were actually listened too (which I guarantee you won't be).

[The utility cyclist]

Pedelecs are already too fast for many users at 25km/h, the speed should be lowered further which would extend the range. We've already seen in the two biggest e-bike using/buying countries that more bought does not equal more cycle journeys/modal share overall and thus are not replacing cars, the higher speed would make such an insignificant difference with regards to journeys but it would increase the danger even further than it already does.

Bicycles are already too fast for many users too.

I think if someone can't handle a bicycle or pedelec at 15mph they're probably not safe to be out without supervision.
I mean - this is 15mph, fifteen miles per hour. As a nearly 60 year old bloke I can run on my own legs faster than that and nobody questions my safety.

Fortunately grandfather rights will almost certainly apply if folk like you were actually listened too (which I guarantee you won't be).

Well the statistics prove that that's less of a problem than being a pedestrian but e cycles have had significant effects on the safety of people who use them, increases in deaths of cyclists in NL continue despite no increase in cycling, the change, MORE E-BIKES!
When you put motor powered vehicles in the hands of humans you have worse outcomes, that includes pedelecs, time and again people mention how exhilarating it is to be able to go fast again, too often the people who are buying these things have barely gone above jogging speed for donkeys and all of a sudden can go at a pace they are not accustomed too. To suggest that if you can't ride at 15mph unless supervised is utterly unfounded and totally ridiculous. it's not just the speed but also the acceleration.
Reducing the maximum speed has no detrimental effect on the user, whether that be people wishing to get about for mobility, those wanting to continue to get up the slopes as they once did or even mountain bikers needing some help over arduous terrain or even a commuter/utility rider, a lower maximum speed does not hinder any of that, as I said, it in fact helps more by increasing range.

[hemo]

Pedelecs are already too fast for many users at 25km/h, the speed should be lowered further which would extend the range. We've already seen in the two biggest e-bike using/buying countries that more bought does not equal more cycle journeys/modal share overall and thus are not replacing cars, the higher speed would make such an insignificant difference with regards to journeys but it would increase the danger even further than it already does.

It's up to the rider one doesn't have to travel to the bikes ultimate speed.
I personally think 18mph is about right but know that however much anyone campaigns it will never be raised as in or out of the EU the UK will keep to the adopted regulations.

[kwackers]

Well the statistics prove that that's less of a problem than being a pedestrian but e cycles have had significant effects on the safety of people who use them, increases in deaths of cyclists in NL continue despite no increase in cycling, the change, MORE E-BIKES!
When you put motor powered vehicles in the hands of humans you have worse outcomes, that includes pedelecs, time and again people mention how exhilarating it is to be able to go fast again, too often the people who are buying these things have barely gone above jogging speed for donkeys and all of a sudden can go at a pace they are not accustomed too. To suggest that if you can't ride at 15mph unless supervised is utterly unfounded and totally ridiculous. it's not just the speed but also the acceleration.
Reducing the maximum speed has no detrimental effect on the user, whether that be people wishing to get about for mobility, those wanting to continue to get up the slopes as they once did or even mountain bikers needing some help over arduous terrain or even a commuter/utility rider, a lower maximum speed does not hinder any of that, as I said, it in fact helps more by increasing range.

No detrimental effect you say?
I beg to differ. For me the current speed is border line worthwhile, if it was slower I wouldn't bother using one.
I don't give a monkeys about increasing my range - that's what bigger batteries are for.

But pretty much everything you say applies to bicycles. Personally I don't care if it's a motor or a pair of legs - both are power sources and there's plenty of evidence that there are folk out there incapable of riding bicycles safely. The only thing that saves them (and ebike riders) is the fact they're riding relatively light weight machines.

[Polisman]

The clear advantage of pedelecs is to cut down on car journeys, and hopefully save some money /environmental cost/improve fitness. I can hardly see any downsides.

As for speed, I think the faster the better. For one simple reason, if you are to replace most short town or city car journeys there has to be a comparable speed advantage.
I would love to ditch my car altogether, but the nearest big store from me is 10 miles away, over hilly terrain. Carrying a load of say 30kg of food and provisions is simply not possible for me, on a regular bicycle. If I had a pedelec that could do for instance 25mph, that would be 20 minutes each leg, easily comparable to a car journey.

I have one caveat though: I'd have two categories of pedelec, one for 'leisure' use, and the other for commuters, with probably a top speed restriction of 30mph. Ownership dependent on passing a rudimentary, fee free test, insurance and a yearly check up on the bike. Anyone caught on a modified 'leisure' bike to be prosecuted.

My other bugbear with current pedelecs is the weight, and the charge times. Surely its possible to get a road bike assist under 12kg? Most mobile phones now (using Li Ion batteries) have a fast charge to 70% capacity in under 20 minutes. This would transform the use of pedelecs, as you could easy charge them up while at the supermarket or nipping in for a swift half

[Cugel]

Well the statistics prove that that's less of a problem than being a pedestrian but e cycles have had significant effects on the safety of people who use them, increases in deaths of cyclists in NL continue despite no increase in cycling, the change, MORE E-BIKES!
When you put motor powered vehicles in the hands of humans you have worse outcomes, that includes pedelecs, time and again people mention how exhilarating it is to be able to go fast again, too often the people who are buying these things have barely gone above jogging speed for donkeys and all of a sudden can go at a pace they are not accustomed too. To suggest that if you can't ride at 15mph unless supervised is utterly unfounded and totally ridiculous. it's not just the speed but also the acceleration.
Reducing the maximum speed has no detrimental effect on the user, whether that be people wishing to get about for mobility, those wanting to continue to get up the slopes as they once did or even mountain bikers needing some help over arduous terrain or even a commuter/utility rider, a lower maximum speed does not hinder any of that, as I said, it in fact helps more by increasing range.

No detrimental effect you say?
I beg to differ. For me the current speed is border line worthwhile, if it was slower I wouldn't bother using one.
I don't give a monkeys about increasing my range - that's what bigger batteries are for.

But pretty much everything you say applies to bicycles. Personally I don't care if it's a motor or a pair of legs - both are power sources and there's plenty of evidence that there are folk out there incapable of riding bicycles safely. The only thing that saves them (and ebike riders) is the fact they're riding relatively light weight machines.

All technologies have dangers accompanying them when they're used by the inept. This applies to can openers as well as to bicycles. Large swathes of the population are inept with most of the technologies commonly sold in the mass markets. Cars are one of the most obvious examples, as witnessed by the number of near-misses, prangs, injuries and deaths. Chainsaws are pretty bad too; but one sees less of them and the results of use by the inept.

So, there seems to be a choice: allow anyone to buy any technological item they like for use as they see fit, or; introduce a programme of stringent tests and licenses for all technologies, with compulsory training and insurance for those who are learning and who eventually pass the test .... as with cars.

Testing, insurance & licensing doesn't work that well with cars ... although one could imagine how bad the carmageddon would be without!

Anyroadup, as an experiment we should appoint the UC to act as a test subject. We will test him for his ability (or lack of it) to operate the various and no doubt many technologies he uses. Should he fail a test, we will take the technology from him until or unless he passes. All his items must now be insured against accidents in use.

Will you tell him or shall I?

Cugel