5mph signs on national cycle route 1

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Rob Archer
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5mph signs on national cycle route 1

Postby Rob Archer » 10 Mar 2019, 4:25pm

5mph signs have recently gone up in Wootton Park in King's Lynn on National Cycle Network Route. I know they have no legal standing and aren't enforceable but will certainly increase antipathy to cyclists and possibly set a precedent for elsewhere on the network. It looks as though they were sanctioned by the Wootton Park Association although the minutes for their November meeting only mentions a 'Shared Space' sign (with which I've no problem). Is there anywhere else where a busy cycleway has a 5mph speed restriction?
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ianrobo
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Re: 5mph signs on national cycle route 1

Postby ianrobo » 10 Mar 2019, 4:36pm

5mph is slower than I walk !! NIMBY rule

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gaz
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Re: 5mph signs on national cycle route 1

Postby gaz » 10 Mar 2019, 4:39pm

5mph, people had best not start running nor let dogs off the lead.

Unenforceable 9mph signs (non-standard) for all vehicles and cycles in Mote Park, Maidstone including NCN177. Certainly not adhered to by motorists accessing the car parks, maintenance staff driving around the park, royal mail delivery service or people on bikes.

I might have seen some 5mph signs on a NCN stretch crossing a car park. Not streetviewable, I'll take a closer look on my next visit.
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Re: 5mph signs on national cycle route 1

Postby MikeF » 10 Mar 2019, 10:01pm

It shows a picture of people running. Presumably they too have too keep below 5mph. :lol:
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londoncommuter0000
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Re: 5mph signs on national cycle route 1

Postby londoncommuter0000 » 10 Mar 2019, 10:10pm

It doesn't really matter whether they're enforceable, and it doesn't really matter whether they can even measure a cyclist's speed accurately.

A police officer or a PCSO will be able to decide entirely arbitrarily that a cyclist was 'speeding', and the Alliston Effect will mean that the cyclist will be convicted.
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gaz
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Re: 5mph signs on national cycle route 1

Postby gaz » 10 Mar 2019, 10:31pm

5mph on NCN1, Gravesend. Not the one I was thinking of earlier.

It's a small parking area for the Rowing Club, bollards prevent general access to the promenade park area, no sign if accessing by cycle from the opposite end*. Until a year or so ago there were signs suggesting cycling was prohibited throughout the prom area, these have changed recently but IIRC there is still an old sign in a distant corner displaying "no cycling" and "dogs on leads" as by-laws.

NCN1 across the prom is routinely closed for a variety of summer events without any diversion. It's not a public road, it's not a PRoW so there's no legal obligation to provide one.

10mph on NCN17, public road. Put up by the riding school, fed up with people driving to NSL. Illegal, I'm not complaining.

*Edit: Whoops, there is one at the bollards.
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Re: 5mph signs on national cycle route 1

Postby londoncommuter0000 » 10 Mar 2019, 10:45pm

gaz wrote: "no cycling" and "dogs on leads"


Really says it all, doesn't it?
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Wanlock Dod
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Re: 5mph signs on national cycle route 1

Postby Wanlock Dod » 11 Mar 2019, 7:48am

The obvious solution to the problem would be segregation of walking and cycling, but that wouldn’t discriminate against cyclists so it’s obviously a non-starter.

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Audax67
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Re: 5mph signs on national cycle route 1

Postby Audax67 » 11 Mar 2019, 8:51am

According to Velo101 there's a shared path in Brussels limited to 6 kph.
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mjr
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Re: 5mph signs on national cycle route 1

Postby mjr » 11 Mar 2019, 11:57am

gaz wrote:Until a year or so ago there were signs suggesting cycling was prohibited throughout the prom area, these have changed recently but IIRC there is still an old sign in a distant corner displaying "no cycling" and "dogs on leads" as by-laws.

Why were the signs removed? This is what I'm more interested in - what are the successful ways to overcome such male chicken behaviour?

gaz wrote:NCN1 across the prom is routinely closed for a variety of summer events without any diversion. It's not a public road, it's not a PRoW so there's no legal obligation to provide one.

But there is a moral and usually arguably at least two council policy obligations of encouraging cycling and encouraging sustainable tourism - two things rather like "motherhood and apple pie" in that most councils support them but few want to provide the practical support. Grrr!

Wanlock Dod wrote:The obvious solution to the problem would be segregation of walking and cycling, but that wouldn’t discriminate against cyclists so it’s obviously a non-starter.

Oh, but it would because segregated footway/cycleways in the UK currently discriminate against cyclists. Government simply paints a stripe 1.5m in from the edge of as much as 9m width of tarmac, declare it as a segregated footway/cycleway with the 1.5m bit being a two-way cycleway and in the UK that then means that cyclists may not legally ride harmlessly on the 7.5m bit to avoid getting in any walkers' way (or to avoid oncoming cyclists, as you can't pass safely in 1.5m), but no law stops people walking in the 1.5m and refusing to move out. Well, arguably it may be obstruction of a highway, but when was the last time anyone was done for that in such a situation? We often can't get parked cars moved off cycleways with the obstruction law, so what chance for moving walkers?

That 1.5m-in-9m example above was also in King's Lynn on National Route 1 and removed about 15 years ago, partly for safety reasons (one end of the 1.5m-in-9m had a T-junction with two other 1.5m segregated ways on a slope that had become dangerously congested) but I feel mainly for heritage reasons (all that white paint was ugly and not in keeping with various listed buildings and landscapes).

I see elsewhere that Rob's done some digging and while "shared space" signs (which I doubt anyone would object to, so even if any cyclist read those minutes or attended the meeting, it probably would have gone unremarked upon) are mentioned in minutes of the park association, there's no mention of the dodgy speed limit bit of it... so this is hopefully someone going off half-cock and exceeding their authority.
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Re: 5mph signs on national cycle route 1

Postby Bmblbzzz » 11 Mar 2019, 12:17pm

mjr wrote:
Wanlock Dod wrote:The obvious solution to the problem would be segregation of walking and cycling, but that wouldn’t discriminate against cyclists so it’s obviously a non-starter.

Oh, but it would because segregated footway/cycleways in the UK currently discriminate against cyclists. Government simply paints a stripe 1.5m in from the edge of as much as 9m width of tarmac, declare it as a segregated footway/cycleway with the 1.5m bit being a two-way cycleway and in the UK that then means that cyclists may not legally ride harmlessly on the 7.5m bit to avoid getting in any walkers' way (or to avoid oncoming cyclists, as you can't pass safely in 1.5m), but no law stops people walking in the 1.5m and refusing to move out. Well, arguably it may be obstruction of a highway, but when was the last time anyone was done for that in such a situation? We often can't get parked cars moved off cycleways with the obstruction law, so what chance for moving walkers?

That 1.5m-in-9m example above was also in King's Lynn on National Route 1 and removed about 15 years ago, partly for safety reasons (one end of the 1.5m-in-9m had a T-junction with two other 1.5m segregated ways on a slope that had become dangerously congested) but I feel mainly for heritage reasons (all that white paint was ugly and not in keeping with various listed buildings and landscapes).

I see elsewhere that Rob's done some digging and while "shared space" signs (which I doubt anyone would object to, so even if any cyclist read those minutes or attended the meeting, it probably would have gone unremarked upon) are mentioned in minutes of the park association, there's no mention of the dodgy speed limit bit of it... so this is hopefully someone going off half-cock and exceeding their authority.

In practice it's worse than this, because the various forms of legalised cycling on the pavement (whether cyclists are obliged to keep to "their side" of a line or not, or whether there is a line at all, etc) also make conditions worse for pedestrians. Mostly it's just convenience for motorists and a lip-service to road safety, sustainable transport, etc.

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Re: 5mph signs on national cycle route 1

Postby mjr » 11 Mar 2019, 12:41pm

Bmblbzzz wrote:In practice it's worse than this, because the various forms of legalised cycling on the pavement (whether cyclists are obliged to keep to "their side" of a line or not, or whether there is a line at all, etc) also make conditions worse for pedestrians. Mostly it's just convenience for motorists and a lip-service to road safety, sustainable transport, etc.

Please remember the context. This is not a pavement/footway of the sort we routinely object to. This is a purpose-built cycleway through a park, built as part of National Cycle Route 1 / Eurovelo 12 and AFAIK funded by Sustrans and local authority cycling budgets to give a more direct route not open to motorists, which had the byproduct of improving conditions for pedestrians by giving a medium-width all-weather tarmac walking route which did not exist before.

One of the parish councils covering the park has now claimed they acted after collisions between walkers and cyclists. None have been reported to anyone else AFAICT so we've asked for details... but does anyone really believe these signs will have any effect on the sort of reckless riders who hit walkers? And it's been pointed out that the extra wobble room needed for low speeds (called something like width deviation in LTN 2/08 Cycle Infrastructure Design) actually means the route would be too narrow for two sign-obeying cyclists to pass.
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Re: 5mph signs on national cycle route 1

Postby whoof » 11 Mar 2019, 12:54pm

Rob Archer wrote:5mph signs have recently gone up in Wootton Park in King's Lynn on National Cycle Network Route. I know they have no legal standing and aren't enforceable but will certainly increase antipathy to cyclists and possibly set a precedent for elsewhere on the network. It looks as though they were sanctioned by the Wootton Park Association although the minutes for their November meeting only mentions a 'Shared Space' sign (with which I've no problem). Is there anywhere else where a busy cycleway has a 5mph speed restriction?


https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bris ... unt-876400

This was built as a cycling/pedestian bridge that leads to Temple Meads station in Bristol. However, whoever built it was a frustrated artist and instead on building a bridge that could be walked and cycled upon they built something that they thought looked nice. It's metal and if it gets wet it's slippery. Some cyclists fell off their bikes in the rain. instead of fixing the bridge the solution was a sign (only on one side!) put up advising cyclists to dismount when using the bridge. Then a sign each side saying' For health and safety reasons cyclist please dismount whilst crossing the bridge'. At rush hour there is even a person employed to stand on either side telling you to do so.
In the dry it is not slippery but if you were to ride across you risk the wrath of pedestrians as they believe that they are in danger, there's a sign that clearly indicates this.

A while later a second larger bridge was built a little further up stream. Unbelievably this also had a metal surface but that was at least rectified by having the decking taken away and resurfaced. However, this has been out of service for over a year as a van tried to drive over the foot/cycle bridge structurally damaging it.

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661-Pete
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Re: 5mph signs on national cycle route 1

Postby 661-Pete » 11 Mar 2019, 1:22pm

How difficult is it to persuade - even: to 'educate' - cyclists to slow to walking pace when passing a pedestrian - or when they cannot see if a pedestrian is ahead?

And at other times when the path is clear, to be allowed to proceed at normal cycling speeds?

That's what I do - and what I guess most cyclists on this forum do.

I don't generally use shared paths when they are set alongside a road, but I do use those which are not at a roadside. If I come up behind a pedestrian who isn't aware of my approach (or doesn't heed my "excuse me"), then I just have to slow to the same pace as the pedestrian. No option.

At least, most of the stretches of path that I use regularly are very short.

The narrowest public path that I frequently negotiate is here in Lewes: just to the left of the pub, it's called Pope's Passage. Barely wide enough for two pedestrians to pass in comfort, of course cycling along it is out of the question: I just scoot the bike slowly and if a pedestrian is coming, I wait. The path is only a few yards long.
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mjr
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Re: 5mph signs on national cycle route 1

Postby mjr » 11 Mar 2019, 1:23pm

whoof wrote:
Rob Archer wrote:[...] Is there anywhere else where a busy cycleway has a 5mph speed restriction?


https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bris ... unt-876400

This was built as a cycling/pedestian bridge that leads to Temple Meads station in Bristol.

Have they added an advisory speed restriction there as well now? :(

When I lived nearer, I had many attempts trying to find a good way across the water between station and city centre. Downstream of the slippery bridge, in order: Temple Way is a nasty dual-carriageway with a bus lane one side, a scarily narrow cycleway the other, and paint-and-sign pavement conversions because the council knows they've failed; Passage Street has narrow cycleways both sides, one of which is in the door zone of parking; Bristol Bridge has narrow cycleways, one between two lanes of queuing cars; Redcliffe Bridge now has a narrow two-way cycleway, making it possibly the best of a bad bunch; Prince's Street Bridge has a narrow two-way cycleway but a cobbled approach and keeps being threatened by Bus Rapid Transit.

I understand there's a new bridge to/from Castle Park, but it's hidden up an unsignposted back street from the south bank (Grimes Lane?) and looks like a wooden plank surface which will be so-so for cycling.
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