Close pass - am I overreacting or should I take a stand ?

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Cugel
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Re: Close pass - am I overreacting or should I take a stand ?

Postby Cugel » 24 Mar 2019, 12:01pm

landsurfer wrote:
mjr wrote:
PT1029 wrote:If you are uninjured, the police won't do anything, lack of resources and all that.

This varies greatly by police force IME. Some act on dashcam evidence more than others.


Not a chance ... all police resources are being diverted to "Trans hate crime" and the incorrect use of pronouns ..... :lol:


Now then, now then! Wots all this noise? We'll have no trouble here!

Which particular sort of "trans hate crime" has brought you to the rozzers' attention? I know your pronoun-sins as it woz me wot reported them all to the authorities, who seemed keen to find an excuse to closely examine the rest of your conduct. I got the distinct impression that they were already aware of your many transgressions!

What would happen in a case where there was dash-cam evidence of a trans hate crime? Would the rozzer receiving the report feel conflicted?

Cugel the snitch.

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Close pass - am I overreacting or should I take a stand ?

Postby The utility cyclist » 24 Mar 2019, 12:02pm

Mick F wrote:Speak to the company. Police won't be interested as nothing bad happened.

As an aside, I used to wait for the school bus to Shevington there at the bottom of Ash Brow junction of the Dalton road. It wasn't a mini roundabout in those days. We moved to Newburgh in 1965.

Well it has, someone was assaulted. Keep on not reporting and nothing will change, reporting to company is even less effective!

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Mick F
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Re: Close pass - am I overreacting or should I take a stand ?

Postby Mick F » 24 Mar 2019, 12:07pm

Who was assaulted?
It was a very close pass by an idiot of a van driver. That's all.

Report it to the company.
Mick F. Cornwall

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Vantage
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Re: Close pass - am I overreacting or should I take a stand ?

Postby Vantage » 24 Mar 2019, 2:19pm

Personally, I'd report that. I'm of the understanding that Lancashire Police aren't known to be all that bothered with reported bad driving incidents but you never know.
The rear footage shows the driver at his/her worst and frankly was too close for comfort. Enough that you wobbled quite a bit out of fear I've no doubt. Contact the company also.
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rfryer
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Re: Close pass - am I overreacting or should I take a stand ?

Postby rfryer » 24 Mar 2019, 2:55pm

As somebody else on this forum has said in the past, it can be effective to contact the company without mentioning the video evidence in the first instance.

Once the driver has had an opportunity to deny any wrongdoing to his management, and they've fobbed you off, you can come up with the evidence. This is likely to make the whole affair more of an embarrassment within the company, and hopefully result in them engaging more with their (lack of) driving standards.

DaveReading
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Re: Close pass - am I overreacting or should I take a stand ?

Postby DaveReading » 24 Mar 2019, 4:13pm

Farrina wrote:In overtaking me he crosses a double white line (shown clearly in the video clip) which I believe to be an offence under S36 RTA 1988.

It's not necessarily an offence, depends on how fast you were travelling.

Farrina
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Re: Close pass - am I overreacting or should I take a stand ?

Postby Farrina » 24 Mar 2019, 4:21pm

DaveReading wrote:
Farrina wrote:In overtaking me he crosses a double white line (shown clearly in the video clip) which I believe to be an offence under S36 RTA 1988.

It's not necessarily an offence, depends on how fast you were travelling.


Indeed that point had crossed my mind as well. Assuming it ended going to court, if he had a “sharp” solicitor he might invite the CPS to prove I was proceeding at more than 12mph ...

That said, I think the overall video evidence is pretty compelling showing an aggressive approach and disregard for my safety such that a pragmatic bench would consider the offences proved.

thirdcrank
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Re: Close pass - am I overreacting or should I take a stand ?

Postby thirdcrank » 24 Mar 2019, 7:46pm

I don't think that pragmatism comes into it. Criminal offences have to be proved to the criminal standard.

The double white central line thing is arguably an example of what's wrong with our system. Being on the wrong side of the road without a clear view of the road ahead is manifestly due care at a minimum, but hard to prove in the absence of a crash so the double white lines were introduced, which are "only" traffic signs.

BTW, I'd suggest that if you do decide to report this to the police, just keep it simple ie relate the events factually.

Farrina
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Re: Close pass - am I overreacting or should I take a stand ?

Postby Farrina » 24 Mar 2019, 9:13pm

thirdcrank wrote:I don't think that pragmatism comes into it. Criminal offences have to be proved to the criminal standard.

BTW, I'd suggest that if you do decide to report this to the police, just keep it simple ie relate the events factually.

Yes of course - I am sure the Police don’t appreciate persons shouting the odds and telling them how to do their job, although unlike your time in the Police (if my memory is correct, you are a retired Inspector?) I suspect they need more encouragement these days.

That said whether they will actually be interested is another matter (I don’t believe Lancashire Police are one of the forces participating in the close pass campaign) so it’s likely to be low on their list of priorities.

Funnily enough, the last time i had a similar experience (in the 1980’s) Merseyside Polive were exceptionally helpful. This was probably not unconnected with the fact that one of my cycling friends was a serving officer and we called into his base station on the way home to lodge a complaint.

The Magistrates were likewise most helpful and convicted the offender ....

awavey
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Re: Close pass - am I overreacting or should I take a stand ?

Postby awavey » 25 Mar 2019, 12:26am

Mick F wrote:Who was assaulted?
It was a very close pass by an idiot of a van driver. That's all.

Report it to the company.


I believe the technical law description of assault, or common assault at least, which gets a bit legalese to be fair in all its ins and outs, but the summary is an assault is commited when one person does something to another person such that they fear force is about to be used that could lead to personal injury.

so they dont have to hit you, for you to be assaulted, though I dont think the take up of that by the CPS is that high.

however Id still report it to the police, I submitted a close pass to my local force, who I assumed would just do a no further action line since I wasnt hit, but actually they responded back saying the driver would be sent a letter reminding them of their responsibilities, which I was satisfied with to be fair. plus it all adds to the stats so they might start to build a picture of the bigger problem, and do some more proactive policing on it.

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horizon
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Re: Close pass - am I overreacting or should I take a stand ?

Postby horizon » 25 Mar 2019, 12:52am

I think you have to ask yourself why you are collecting the videos. If it is to report driving then do so. The consensus on here is that it wasn't provably criminal so it won't be worth reporting it to the police (IMV) but it was nevertheless dangerous and unpleasant and therefore certainly worth reporting to the firm. It helps us all if you do.
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brynpoeth
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Re: Close pass - am I overreacting or should I take a stand ?

Postby brynpoeth » 25 Mar 2019, 5:38am

rfryer wrote:As somebody else on this forum has said in the past, it can be effective to contact the company without mentioning the video evidence in the first instance.

Once the driver has had an opportunity to deny any wrongdoing to his management, and they've fobbed you off, you can come up with the evidence. This is likely to make the whole affair more of an embarrassment within the company, and hopefully result in them engaging more with their (lack of) driving standards.

Could result in the driver losing their job [for lying], an appropriate punishment I think preventing further offences, unless she gets a driving job elsewhere :(
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thirdcrank
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Re: Close pass - am I overreacting or should I take a stand ?

Postby thirdcrank » 25 Mar 2019, 7:31am

My own working days are long gone: I've been retired almost 22 years. Some things haven't changed eg the need for compelling evidence, while others have changed eg the reduction in emphasis on traffic policing. Video footage can be good evidence, but it's not magic. If the police nationally have stopped automatically investigating all crashes, it doesn't surprise me that they don't do much about near misses.

Another thing that changed towards the end of my career was the law on common assault. It used to be the case that only the victim could normally take proceedings for common assault, so I've little experience of how it has worked since the change. Clearly, there are cases where a vehicle is used as a weapon, and I suspect there's more of it happening than is recognised because it's so easily explained as driver error. For most of my career, if somebody reported that somebody else had taken a swing at them but missed, it would have been "referred to Justices." ie Complainant advised how to take out a summons for common assault. Had somebody reported a near miss in a traffic incident, it would never have occurred to me to deal with it by R to J.

As I explained above, I've not watched the vid so I've not commented on the driving in this case. I'd reiterate my recommendation to choose between the police and the company and if reporting to the police concentrate on a factual account, including of course that there's front and back vid footage.

Farrina
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Re: Close pass - am I overreacting or should I take a stand ?

Postby Farrina » 25 Mar 2019, 3:37pm

I am now able to provide an update.

I rang the Company at their national office this morning to complain and was was immediately referred to the relevant Regional Depot Manager in Preston.

In his absence I left a message comprising bare details with a member of his staff and the manager returned my call within the hour to discuss.

He seemed genuinely disappointed at the circumstances advising that his drivers had all recently undertaken (and passed) Health and Safety courses (including driver awareness of cyclists etc).

I provided written details of my complaint electronically (as well as the video footage) and having reviewed the same, without even referring to the subject driver (who was in any event not in work today), he has already apologised on the Company’s behalf for the drivers conduct.

Hi-lights of his response (edited)

"I will be inviting him into a disciplinary hearing and pointing out to him his behaviour regarding cyclist and future conduct with regards to his driving"

"I will get the engineer to make out his statement and inform him to write to you accordingly as an official apology"

"I thank you for the attachments and information you have provided. I will be passing this on to all my engineers and drivers in a tool box talk so there can be no excuses in the future from any of my employees here"


He has also copied the email to the Group National Health and Safety Manager for wider dissemination.

I think we are all winners;

(1) The company (Lanes Group PLC) comes away with its reputation enhanced.

(2) The driver escapes (in football parlance) with a "yellow card" and no points.

(3) I achieve my aim of educating drivers to be more aware and considerate towards cyclists.

Finally, for those unable to download the video files, I have attached some screenshots taken from the videos to provide some context to this discussion.

All in all, I would call this a result !
Image Attachments
Newburgh_overview.png
Overview of approach to Newburgh - Ash Brow/Higher Lane Junction
NewburghBack.png
Offender Vehicle Back Camera
NewburghFront.png
Offender Vehicle Front Camera

reohn2
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Re: Close pass - am I overreacting or should I take a stand ?

Postby reohn2 » 25 Mar 2019, 5:25pm

I think as you say it's a winners alround case,driver gets a roasting and company appear genuinely concerned,and no doubt the footage put the driver in the hot seat where he couldn't deny it.
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