incident with police driver

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Bmblbzzz
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Re: incident with police driver

Postby Bmblbzzz » 5 Jun 2019, 10:42am

mattsccm wrote:Have I missed something, the thread is getting rather messy?

It's messily titled! Three different headings in one thread now.

cotswolds
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Re: substandard narrow cycle lanes and car parking

Postby cotswolds » 5 Jun 2019, 12:52pm

Bmblbzzz wrote:Here's one of my "favourite" examples of the second method, from Gloucester (the link is to streetview from a few years ago, cos they've now improved this lane by, err, removing it). https://goo.gl/maps/7faAGdGe7f3FAfzS8


Gloucester is up there with the best for rubbish cycle lanes. This is my favourite, still there I believe. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.8400684,-2.2421388,3a,75y,59.55h,57.55t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sE-gxz-1Frnsj3SoncyhdnA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 Yes, that dashed line does represent a cycle lane.

Further down the same route you can find this. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.8155195,-2.2819681,3a,75y,189.18h,70.1t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s3BzedZsBvVjjThFL31oZhg!2e0!5s20090701T000000!7i13312!8i6656

Those posts can have no effect on traffic speed, their sole function seems to be to force cyclists into the path of cars. (That's actually old street view. They've "improved" it, not by taking the posts away but by finishing the cycle lane further away from the posts, so it doesn't look quite so silly.)

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Re: incident with police driver

Postby mjr » 5 Jun 2019, 12:53pm

Bmblbzzz wrote:
mattsccm wrote:Have I missed something, the thread is getting rather messy?

It's messily titled! Three different headings in one thread now.

The original title was vague, it was retitled by mods, then reverted somehow, now has been retitled to something else.
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Re: substandard narrow cycle lanes and car parking

Postby mjr » 5 Jun 2019, 1:01pm

cotswolds wrote:
Bmblbzzz wrote:Here's one of my "favourite" examples of the second method, from Gloucester (the link is to streetview from a few years ago, cos they've now improved this lane by, err, removing it). https://goo.gl/maps/7faAGdGe7f3FAfzS8


Gloucester is up there with the best for rubbish cycle lanes. This is my favourite, still there I believe. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.8400684,-2.2421388,3a,75y,59.55h,57.55t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sE-gxz-1Frnsj3SoncyhdnA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 Yes, that dashed line does represent a cycle lane.

Further down the same route you can find this. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.8155195,-2.2819681,3a,75y,189.18h,70.1t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s3BzedZsBvVjjThFL31oZhg!2e0!5s20090701T000000!7i13312!8i6656

Those posts can have no effect on traffic speed, their sole function seems to be to force cyclists into the path of cars. (That's actually old street view. They've "improved" it, not by taking the posts away but by finishing the cycle lane further away from the posts, so it doesn't look quite so silly.)

The posts and narrowings are thought to have a minor effect on traffic speed, but I don't know the evidence and I don't think it's worth the problems it causes two-wheeled users.

I doubted that they were cycle lanes but moving along them, I see bike symbols. Someone at Gloucestershire Highways should be forced to ride them continuously until they agree to widen them!

It's really annoying because we know how to paint roads that are too narrow for cycle lane + carriage lane + carriage lane + cycle lane - you narrow the carriage lane and make cars straddle two lanes carefully: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.74183 ... 312!8i6656

This example from Norwich still has the cycle lanes a bit too narrow. I'm sure there's a better example somewhere in Norfolk but I can't remember where: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.62477 ... 312!8i6656
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Re: substandard narrow cycle lanes and car parking

Postby Bmblbzzz » 5 Jun 2019, 4:01pm

mjr wrote:I doubted that they were cycle lanes but moving along them, I see bike symbols. Someone at Gloucestershire Highways should be forced to ride them continuously until they agree to widen them!

Yep! Though TBF I think it's only in Gloucester itself where the ludicrous examples are.

It's really annoying because we know how to paint roads that are too narrow for cycle lane + carriage lane + carriage lane + cycle lane - you narrow the carriage lane and make cars straddle two lanes carefully: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.74183 ... 312!8i6656

Actually I'm not sure I really see the point of that one. You've got a nice wide cycle lane, yes, one in each direction (and look at that smooth surface! Haven't they heard of austerity in Holland? :? ) but clearly any car that wants to overtake will have to use other half of the road - there's no room for 'in lane' overtaking. So I'm not sure of the point in not just having a normal centre line (or no lines at all)? It kind of looks like bikes are artificially constrained to a smaller portion of the road, which is odd...

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Re: substandard narrow cycle lanes and car parking

Postby cotswolds » 5 Jun 2019, 4:26pm

Bmblbzzz wrote:
It's really annoying because we know how to paint roads that are too narrow for cycle lane + carriage lane + carriage lane + cycle lane - you narrow the carriage lane and make cars straddle two lanes carefully: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.74183 ... 312!8i6656

Actually I'm not sure I really see the point of that one. You've got a nice wide cycle lane, yes, one in each direction (and look at that smooth surface! Haven't they heard of austerity in Holland? :? ) but clearly any car that wants to overtake will have to use other half of the road - there's no room for 'in lane' overtaking. So I'm not sure of the point in not just having a normal centre line (or no lines at all)? It kind of looks like bikes are artificially constrained to a smaller portion of the road, which is odd...


I cycled something similar in Holland but slightly different. The centre lane was wide enough for motor traffic, which could only move into the cycle lanes if they were empty. Two way road, so if two cars met from opposite directions, and the cycle lanes were busy, they might have to wait. That's what I call proper traffic calming!

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Re: substandard narrow cycle lanes and car parking

Postby cotswolds » 5 Jun 2019, 4:36pm

mjr wrote:It's really annoying because we know how to paint roads that are too narrow...

I'd argue that in both those cases the roads are not too narrow. In the first case there's a metre wide hatched area which would make the world of difference to the cycle lane, and the second road is a bypassed former A road with plenty of space. Space has been taken away from cyclists for other features of minimal value.

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Re: substandard narrow cycle lanes and car parking

Postby mjr » 5 Jun 2019, 5:18pm

Bmblbzzz wrote:
It's really annoying because we know how to paint roads that are too narrow for cycle lane + carriage lane + carriage lane + cycle lane - you narrow the carriage lane and make cars straddle two lanes carefully: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.74183 ... 312!8i6656

Actually I'm not sure I really see the point of that one. You've got a nice wide cycle lane, yes, one in each direction (and look at that smooth surface! Haven't they heard of austerity in Holland? :? ) but clearly any car that wants to overtake will have to use other half of the road - there's no room for 'in lane' overtaking. So I'm not sure of the point in not just having a normal centre line (or no lines at all)? It kind of looks like bikes are artificially constrained to a smaller portion of the road, which is odd...

The point of it is to make it clear that this road is a cycle route which you may drive on, making it obvious that you need to use the oncoming lane to pass. Surely you've enjoyed the usual sort of UK road with a normal centre line or no lines at all where motorists still won't get all the way over into the oncoming lane even though it's clear?

cotswolds wrote:I cycled something similar in Holland but slightly different. The centre lane was wide enough for motor traffic, which could only move into the cycle lanes if they were empty. Two way road, so if two cars met from opposite directions, and the cycle lanes were busy, they might have to wait. That's what I call proper traffic calming!

Even better: https://goo.gl/maps/8GxUktHi7CZB93bV9 - whole width is a cycle lane, cars may not overtake.
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Re: incident with police driver

Postby Bmblbzzz » 5 Jun 2019, 7:00pm

If the "centre strip" is wide enough for a car to drive down -- without endangering cyclists in the "cycle lanes" either side -- then I can see it would work. It didn't look quite that wide to me, but maybe it is. But it does rely on drivers behaving properly. That Ghent embankment, well it's definitely a special case; not a road exactly, more a very high liveable street!

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Re: incident with police driver

Postby thirdcrank » 8 Jun 2019, 12:02pm

Cyclists and perhaps more so cycle clubs have recognized signals for this (hand behind the back pointing the way you've got to move is the one I'm familiar with) but the important question is whether J. Random Motorist would recognize it.


I've only tried it once, on Mill Lane on Baildon Moor. On a bit where only a loony driver would overtake a rider, I had one such behind and I could hear another coming the other way but out of sight because of bends and bushes. I took to the gutter because I didn't want to risk being hit head-on which probably encouraged an overtake in spite of my frantic "get on my wheel signal" which is nowhere in the HC. "You clunch" - an advertising catch phrase for crisps (?) - was a common bit of canteen humour at the time.

I presume that half windsock and variations refer to some cool riders' mini signals, again nowhere in the HC. When I introduced Augustus W above, it was to ... er .. indicate :oops: the origins of some drivers' sense of entitlement. Of course, it's always best if if there's no wrecks and nobody drownded, but if something does go wrong, IMO you can't beat the official approach and language.

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Re: incident with police driver

Postby thirdcrank » 13 Jun 2019, 9:21pm

On the general issue of turning right or moving to the right eg when changing lane, then IMO if a signal is needed to alert other road users including pedestrians, then there's a lot to be said for the recognised signal.

I've spent a lot of time in different criminal courts from the Assizes to the juvenile court as a glorified usher, jury marshal, dock officer, witness (both as a member of the public and police officer) prosecutor and jury foreman. I've attended coroners' inquests as a witness. I don't remember ever attending a civil court in any capacity.

I don't remember being involved in any case in any capacity where a cyclist's signals were an issue. I can see that they might be in a compo claim, a prosecution for careless driving or cycling, or at an inquest.

From a cyclists perspective, I can see immense value in any signalling being as recommended in the HC. No matter in what capacity, a description of a rider's signal in those terms would be powerful evidence.

Arm signals
For use when direction indicator signals are not used, or when necessary to reinforce direction indicator signals and stop lights. Also for use by pedal cyclists and those in charge of horses.
(Emphasis preserved.

Here's the relevant HC recommended signal:
bike-arm-signal-turn-right.jpg
I intend to move out to the right or turn right

Unfortunately there are no images of a cyclist signalling, and the motorcyclist has a helmet and hi-viz vest.

I think any improvisation would be open to attack. I've been present in court when the late Judge James Pickes was displaying his acting aspirations, but not when he asked for information about the identity of the fab four AKA The Beatles. I'm sure some latter day understudy would have something colourful to say about a half windsock

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Re: incident with police driver

Postby mjr » 14 Jun 2019, 12:10am

Yes, it's a mess. The confusing double-purposing of the right turn signal for riders was introduced in the 1954 edition of the highway code, the same time the more common arm-up stop signal was deleted - almost no-one except campaigners, instructers and new drivers studying for the tests knows its replacement.

I can't be the only rider to get an earful from a following road user who thought I was about to turn off right, until I started doing what many others do intuitively and just point where I want to go.
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Re: incident with police driver

Postby Bmblbzzz » 14 Jun 2019, 9:02am

By "the more common arm up stop signal" do you mean a signal given by eg a policeman to tell others to stop, or a signal to say that you are stopping? It's still common and fairly intuitive IMO in the first meaning. In the second, while the "flapping arm" signal might not be widely known, it's fairly clear when you see it in context; as are unofficial variations such as the "pushing back" motion with palm toward those following you, but that one only really shows up to following traffic. A hand up to say "I am stopping" doesn't seem to make much sense to me. Nor (following your Canadian link) do the various circular motions of the HC for use by car drivers and as for the second and fourth in the image, ???
Image

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Re: incident with police driver

Postby brynpoeth » 15 Jun 2019, 6:25pm

Saw a cop driving a copmobile with one hand on the wheel, the other holding a milkshake
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Re: incident with police driver

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 16 Jun 2019, 10:17am

Hi,
brynpoeth wrote:Saw a cop driving a copmobile with one hand on the wheel, the other holding a milkshake
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Prefer that to a mobile phone any day.
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