Sneaky mobile speed camera van - do you warn people?

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Pastychomper
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Re: Sneaky mobile speed camera van - do you warn people?

Postby Pastychomper » 28 Jun 2019, 11:03am

The utility cyclist wrote:No, all of them, how much is it going to cost to fit such a device, a few hundred quid. We know how little it costs to fit GPS tracking devices and speed limiters, there's already speed sign readers that control speed but there are simpler and more accurate methods when installed in the signs. Would it cost the UK gov a lot to put the signals into signs at certain junctures, yup, but a lot less than the savings from fewer lives lost and the massive number of serious and slight injuries, damaged vehicles etc.
Getting these devices made and fitted would also bring a lot of employment and them being made by the tens of millions would reduce the price enormously.

Restricting overtaking is a good thing, overtaking increases the chances of collision/incidents massively, this should be very obvious quite honestly.


I'd at least want a reliable safeguard for the times those devices fail. For me they'd be just like the immobiliser in an old banger - makes no difference until it goes wrong.

The time I sat outside a petrol station trying to start a car with a dodgy immobiliser was annoying to the van man behind and delayed my journey to w*rk, but at least I didn't have to respond to an automatic ticket for "tampering" with the device. If a compulsory device is damaged by water ingress, how will the mechanic know whether it was deliberate?

I'd also have some misgivings about having an auto-brake activate on the motorway after some juvenile comedian broke the grey box off a 20-limit sign and left it on a bridge.

That's the trouble with making the device compulsory and adding automatic fines, suddenly the whole system needs to be far more reliable (hence expensive) or else the innocent have even more to fear. On the other hand I'd be quite happy with a speed limiter that could be legally overridden and operated on the presumed-innocent principle.

Having seen the effect of average-speed cameras around the Southeast (though not in Aberdeen itself, yet :lol:) I think they'd be a far better way to combat the speed culture.
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PDQ Mobile
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Re: Sneaky mobile speed camera van - do you warn people?

Postby PDQ Mobile » 28 Jun 2019, 11:09am

rfryer wrote:It frustrates me that these systems aren't linked. When the speed limit changes, I have to make multiple button presses to reconfigure the cruise control or speed limiter to match the new limit. It would be so much better if the system just prompted me to accept a change to the new limit.

Indeed and distracts one from the road ahead?

rfryer
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Re: Sneaky mobile speed camera van - do you warn people?

Postby rfryer » 28 Jun 2019, 12:57pm

PDQ Mobile wrote:
rfryer wrote:It frustrates me that these systems aren't linked. When the speed limit changes, I have to make multiple button presses to reconfigure the cruise control or speed limiter to match the new limit. It would be so much better if the system just prompted me to accept a change to the new limit.

Indeed and distracts one from the road ahead?

I'm not clear on your point. As currently implemented, it is a distraction to set the limit, but that is set against being less distracted for the next period of time during which you never need to glance at the dashboard and can focus completely on the road ahead.

An audible "bong" when the car thinks the limit has changed, combined with a clear display of the new limit and a steering wheel button to accept it, is about as undistracting as it could possibly be - barely more distracting than the sign on the side of the road, but much more functional.

andrec
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Re: Sneaky mobile speed camera van - do you warn people?

Postby andrec » 1 Jul 2019, 12:42pm

I'd like to see satellite tracking of all cars so that keepers can be fined every time they break the limit. There are no privacy issues really as roads are public spaces. All speed cameras should be hidden and mobile. It makes no sense to make them highly visible, about as sensible as requiring store detective or plain clothes policemen to dress in yellow jump suits so that every law breaker can spot them and behave properly until they are out of sight.

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Re: Sneaky mobile speed camera van - do you warn people?

Postby Bonefishblues » 1 Jul 2019, 1:37pm

andrec wrote:I'd like to see satellite tracking of all cars so that keepers can be fined every time they break the limit. There are no privacy issues really as roads are public spaces. All speed cameras should be hidden and mobile. It makes no sense to make them highly visible, about as sensible as requiring store detective or plain clothes policemen to dress in yellow jump suits so that every law breaker can spot them and behave properly until they are out of sight.

It does if they are positioned at a notable accident blackspot. That saves lives, which is surely the object of the exercise.

Mike Sales
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Re: Sneaky mobile speed camera van - do you warn people?

Postby Mike Sales » 1 Jul 2019, 1:51pm

Bonefishblues wrote:It does if they are positioned at a notable accident blackspot. That saves lives, which is surely the object of the exercise.


I think that limits are set in order to stop accidents happening in the first place, rather than to shut the stable door when it is too late. Some limited roads are so forbidding for people to cross that they have a low accident rate, since few pedestrians venture an attempt to cross, and those who do take great care.
The aim should be to reduce the dominance of vehicles in areas people live and circulate, and so make our streets more agreeable places for other modes of getting about.
Should speed limits only be observed where there have been accidents? The highwaymen have refused to limit roads through villages where traffic roars through because no-one has yet been killed.
Why are drivers in such a hurry?

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Re: Sneaky mobile speed camera van - do you warn people?

Postby Bonefishblues » 1 Jul 2019, 1:56pm

Mike Sales wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:It does if they are positioned at a notable accident blackspot. That saves lives, which is surely the object of the exercise.


I think that limits are set in order to stop accidents happening in the first place, rather than to shut the stable door when it is too late. Some limited roads are so forbidding for people to cross that they have a low accident rate, since few pedestrians venture an attempt to cross, and those who do take great care.
The aim should be to reduce the dominance of vehicles in areas people live and circulate, and so make our streets more agreeable places for other modes of getting about.
Should speed limits only be observed where there have been accidents? The highwaymen have refused to limit roads through villages where traffic roars through because no-one has yet been killed.
Why are drivers in such a hurry?

It's an interesting point.

Does the presence of a camera make drivers more aware that this is a place to keep your wits about you. Would simple speed adherence give a similar benefit. I'd suggest not - accidents are not a simple function of speed.

landsurfer
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Re: Sneaky mobile speed camera van - do you warn people?

Postby landsurfer » 1 Jul 2019, 1:59pm

I always warn oncoming traffic of speed camera vans.
Radio Hallam also has a daily report of where they are.
I particularly warn motorcyclists.

If it's a dangerous spot surely you don't want anyone to be speeding, someone may be injured .. or worse .. ?
If it's not a dangerous spot then its an entrapment / tax.
Seems reasonable to me ...

Personally, i like those non camera based speed limit light up boards ... good reminders ..
The Road Goes On Forever

Mike Sales
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Re: Sneaky mobile speed camera van - do you warn people?

Postby Mike Sales » 1 Jul 2019, 2:11pm

Bonefishblues wrote:It's an interesting point.

Does the presence of a camera make drivers more aware that this is a place to keep your wits about you. Would simple speed adherence give a similar benefit. I'd suggest not - accidents are not a simple function of speed.


I think obvious cameras make drivers slow down at that particular place, but elsewhere they feel able to ignore limits. Hidden cameras mean that any limited area is a area to keep to limits.
When vehicles go faster incidents happen faster, braking distances increase and impact damage is greater.
A very important function of slowing traffic is to give the roads back to people outside cars. Motor traffic dominates too many of the places people walk and cycle, because of its speed and damage potential. Let's give our streets back to the people. Slowing traffic is a move in the right direction.
Thirty limits now, even when observed, tend towards being a 36 mph limit (10% + 3mph.) I understand that this is the generous 20% leeway the police give drivers. 20% faster is rather more than 20% extra kinetic energy.
Why are drivers in such a hurry?

Is there any evidence that light up boards actually slow traffic down? My observations suggest not. The limit signs are there for those who want to obey limits. Why should an additional sign make any difference? I don't think speeders are going too fast by inadvertence.

Bonefishblues
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Re: Sneaky mobile speed camera van - do you warn people?

Postby Bonefishblues » 1 Jul 2019, 2:32pm

Mike Sales wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:It's an interesting point.

Does the presence of a camera make drivers more aware that this is a place to keep your wits about you. Would simple speed adherence give a similar benefit. I'd suggest not - accidents are not a simple function of speed.


I think obvious cameras make drivers slow down at that particular place, but elsewhere they feel able to ignore limits. Hidden cameras mean that any limited area is a area to keep to limits.
When vehicles go faster incidents happen faster, braking distances increase and impact damage is greater.
A very important function of slowing traffic is to give the roads back to people outside cars. Motor traffic dominates too many of the places people walk and cycle, because of its speed and damage potential. Let's give our streets back to the people. Slowing traffic is a move in the right direction.
Thirty limits now, even when observed, tend towards being a 36 mph limit (10% + 3mph.) I understand that this is the generous 20% leeway the police give drivers. 20% faster is rather more than 20% extra kinetic energy.
Why are drivers in such a hurry?

Is there any evidence that light up boards actually slow traffic down? My observations suggest not. The limit signs are there for those who want to obey limits. Why should an additional sign make any difference? I don't think speeders are going too fast by inadvertence.

I think that you're conflating points I didn't make here.

My opinion is:

Marked speed cameras have a place as I described above.
Unmarked mobile units also have a place, I agree, but they are few and far between, as we know.
I agree that control of speed is important, although I think that it is the intimidatory 'outliers' which cause by far the greatest alarm - the 40+ in a 30 et al. 25-30-35 range in a 30 less so.
I have observed, based on a sample of ours and ours only - because data, that a well-designed speed countdown board does change driver behaviour. Ours counts their speed down from 100+ metres. We simply don't get the 50+ speeds into our village any more, in fact 40 would be very much an outlier now. Our community feels better and safer as a result.
More speed means more energy, and graver consequences when accidents happen, I agree.

Pick the bones etc :D

landsurfer
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Re: Sneaky mobile speed camera van - do you warn people?

Postby landsurfer » 1 Jul 2019, 3:11pm

Bonefishblues wrote:
My opinion is:

Marked speed cameras have a place as I described above.
Unmarked mobile units also have a place, I agree, but they are few and far between, as we know.
I agree that control of speed is important, although I think that it is the intimidatory 'outliers' which cause by far the greatest alarm - the 40+ in a 30 et al. 25-30-35 range in a 30 less so.
I have observed, based on a sample of ours and ours only - because data, that a well-designed speed countdown board does change driver behaviour. Ours counts their speed down from 100+ metres. We simply don't get the 50+ speeds into our village any more, in fact 40 would be very much an outlier now. Our community feels better and safer as a result.
More speed means more energy, and graver consequences when accidents happen, I agree.

Pick the bones etc :D


I pretty much agree with all of this comment ... but there is an underlying assumption in the bigger post that all drivers break the speed limits all of the time ...
I don't, the majority of us drivers don't.
We see a limit and understand it's not a target.
4 wheels bad, 2 wheels good is ludicrous.. it certainly isn't a starting point for a reasoned debate.
The Road Goes On Forever

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Re: Sneaky mobile speed camera van - do you warn people?

Postby Mike Sales » 1 Jul 2019, 3:36pm

landsurfer wrote:
I pretty much agree with all of this comment ... but there is an underlying assumption in the bigger post that all drivers break the speed limits all of the time ...
I don't, the majority of us drivers don't.
We see a limit and understand it's not a target.
4 wheels bad, 2 wheels good is ludicrous.. it certainly isn't a starting point for a reasoned debate.


More than half of the UK’s motorists break 30mph speed limits, according to new data.
Statistics revealed by the Department for Transport (DfT) revealed 52 per cent of cars exceed the limits in free-flowing traffic conditions where Auto Traffic Counters (ATCs) were located.

More than half of the UK’s motorists break 30mph speed limits, according to new data.
Statistics revealed by the Department for Transport (DfT) revealed 52 per cent of cars exceed the limits in free-flowing traffic conditions where Auto Traffic Counters (ATCs) were located.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/more-half-car-drivers-break-144607520.html

NEARLY 90% of drivers struggle to stick to 20mph speed limits, according to new government statistics.
The Department for Transport (DfT) found that more than four-fifths (87%) of the 16.2m car drivers observed at 20mph sites across the UK in 2018 were found to be travelling faster than the speed limit.


https://www.driving.co.uk/news/four-fifths-drivers-cant-stick-20mph-speed-limit/

The majority of drivers on UK roads regularly break the speed limit. That’s the finding of a recent report published by MOT and car servicing firm Fixter.
The report found that 70% of drivers admit to knowingly breaking the speed limit, with 27% saying they do so whenever they believe they can get away with it.


https://www.verizonconnect.com/uk/resources/article/breaking-speed-limit/

More than half of British drivers break speed limits every day, a survey by motoring organisation the RAC suggests.
Of the 1,074 questioned, 55% admitted regularly speeding, compared with 45% in last year's RAC Report on Motoring.
The RAC says 30mph limits are the most likely to be ignored, and drivers continue speeding because they do not believe they will be caught.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4241215.stm

Enough?

Mike Sales
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Re: Sneaky mobile speed camera van - do you warn people?

Postby Mike Sales » 1 Jul 2019, 3:39pm

landsurfer wrote:4 wheels bad, 2 wheels good is ludicrous.. it certainly isn't a starting point for a reasoned debate.


I did not say anything like this. I don't think I even implied it.

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Re: Sneaky mobile speed camera van - do you warn people?

Postby Vorpal » 1 Jul 2019, 3:42pm

landsurfer wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:
My opinion is:

Marked speed cameras have a place as I described above.
Unmarked mobile units also have a place, I agree, but they are few and far between, as we know.
I agree that control of speed is important, although I think that it is the intimidatory 'outliers' which cause by far the greatest alarm - the 40+ in a 30 et al. 25-30-35 range in a 30 less so.
I have observed, based on a sample of ours and ours only - because data, that a well-designed speed countdown board does change driver behaviour. Ours counts their speed down from 100+ metres. We simply don't get the 50+ speeds into our village any more, in fact 40 would be very much an outlier now. Our community feels better and safer as a result.
More speed means more energy, and graver consequences when accidents happen, I agree.

Pick the bones etc :D


I pretty much agree with all of this comment ... but there is an underlying assumption in the bigger post that all drivers break the speed limits all of the time ...
I don't, the majority of us drivers don't.
We see a limit and understand it's not a target.

The majority don't?
The DfT found a majority of drivers speeding when the speed limit is low.
https://theworldnews.net/uk-news/more-t ... s-says-dft

Surveys have found that a high percentage of drivers admit regular speeding
https://www.theaa.com/cars/news/generic ... -1732.html
https://conversation.which.co.uk/motori ... insurance/

There is cultural acceptance of speeding in the UK. Not all drivers speed, but far too many, do.

p.s. cross posted with Mike Sales, but the point remains.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

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Pastychomper
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Re: Sneaky mobile speed camera van - do you warn people?

Postby Pastychomper » 1 Jul 2019, 4:29pm

Vorpal wrote:...There is cultural acceptance of speeding in the UK. Not all drivers speed, but far too many, do.

p.s. cross posted with Mike Sales, but the point remains.


As a child I remember my father telling me it was common for planners to assume people would go up to 10mph over the posted limit, and reduce it accordingly - so if they wanted drivers to go no more than 40, they'd post a 30 limit, etc. As far as I recall he's always been one to keep within the posted limit (and let people queue or pass as they see fit), so that comment would have been more his understanding of planning policy than an excuse to speed. Perhaps someone more experienced than this forty-something whippersnapper would care to comment? :)

If that was the case then it's no surprise to me that 20+ years of speed cameras haven't made much of a difference to the culture. One could even argue that the introduction of speed cameras represented an effective reduction in speed limits around the country - from the informal "x + 10mph" that was enforced to the lower "x + 10%" (or whatever) that the cameras enforce. If so I consider the "reduction" a good thing but wouldn't expect Mr Toad to agree with me.
Everyone's ghast should get a good flabbering now and then.
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