Why do drivers think this acceptable?

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fastpedaller
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Re: Why do drivers think this acceptable?

Postby fastpedaller » 4 Jul 2019, 10:43am

pwa wrote:Just to answer the title question directly, I don't think most drivers do think that is acceptable. I believe that a dangerous minority do.


Yes, I think you are correct. It's the bad ones we notice more of course. In my rural Norfolk, I notice what seems to be a distinct 2 'types' of motorist, particularly when cycling on a narrow lane with oncoming traffic - there are those that pull over and stop to let me through(nice, and they get a friendly thank you wave), and the others (and I sometimes wonder if they've even seen me) who just blunder on at great speed, and if I don't make a move towards the edge I'm in real danger! It happens when I'm driving also..... One day on a lane with 'passing places' my car was being followed by 2 others, 'Lady' decided she wouldn't pull into the passing place on her side of road and just kept coming. It was like a TV sit-com, I got out (as did she) and she said "I've already waited for someone at the last one, it's my turn now!" To which I said, "well there's 3 cars, wouldn't it be easier if you reversed back to the passing place" we all waited patiently until she saw sense :lol: :lol: The daft thing is that in her 'hurry' she wasted several minutes.

Mike Sales
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Re: Why do drivers think this acceptable?

Postby Mike Sales » 4 Jul 2019, 10:48am

fastpedaller wrote:
pwa wrote:Just to answer the title question directly, I don't think most drivers do think that is acceptable. I believe that a dangerous minority do.


Yes, I think you are correct. It's the bad ones we notice more of course. In my rural Norfolk, I notice what seems to be a distinct 2 'types' of motorist, particularly when cycling on a narrow lane with oncoming traffic - there are those that pull over and stop to let me through(nice, and they get a friendly thank you wave), and the others (and I sometimes wonder if they've even seen me) who just blunder on at great speed, and if I don't make a move towards the edge I'm in real danger! It happens when I'm driving also..... One day on a lane with 'passing places' my car was being followed by 2 others, 'Lady' decided she wouldn't pull into the passing place on her side of road and just kept coming. It was like a TV sit-com, I got out (as did she) and she said "I've already waited for someone at the last one, it's my turn now!" To which I said, "well there's 3 cars, wouldn't it be easier if you reversed back to the passing place" we all waited patiently until she saw sense :lol: :lol: The daft thing is that in her 'hurry' she wasted several minutes.


On the narrow back lanes of Lincolnshire I have found the same. A majority pull off the road, sometimes at a distance that shows they are thinking well ahead. A minority keep on coming, some not slackening speed.

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Why do drivers think this acceptable?

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 4 Jul 2019, 11:07am

Hi,
What you didn't wipe the top of the car with your hand :evil:
The only thing against retorting to finger waving, is that some drivers will then turn into you with their car to so show their disgust :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
If You Don't Try You Don't Do.....Don't Do You Don't Get...I'm Still Trying....Well Very..
You'll Find Me At The Top Of A Hill...............Somewhere...After Dark..

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Cunobelin
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Re: Why do drivers think this acceptable?

Postby Cunobelin » 4 Jul 2019, 2:12pm

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
What you didn't wipe the top of the car with your hand :evil:
The only thing against retorting to finger waving, is that some drivers will then turn into you with their car to so show their disgust :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


Once had something similar, came alongside a few minutes later when he was in traffic.

Pointed out that whilst it was nice of him to offer sexual favours to compensate for his bad driving if his sexual technique was similarly selfish, I doubted it would be a worthwhile experience, so I would have to decline.

You could see him take a few seconds to work it out, and why his teenage kid in the front seat was tittering away

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Cunobelin
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Re: Why do drivers think this acceptable?

Postby Cunobelin » 4 Jul 2019, 2:13pm

fastpedaller wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:One of the places an obvious helmet cam is useful.

Doesn't always work, but pointing it out does deter a lot of these stupid moves.


Is this a case for a 'little sign' on the back of the bike with a 'camera logo' on it? Would it be helpful, or would it have the opposite effect and goad the bad ones?


As I said, not foolproof, but does stop a few

Pete Owens
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Re: Why do drivers think this acceptable?

Postby Pete Owens » 4 Jul 2019, 2:48pm

mediumbird wrote:... Cycling back from the gym, looking to turn right down a quiet side road, check clear to move to the middle, arm out indicating right, and what happens.? Well, about 50 feet from the turn off two cars think it acceptable to pass me on the right on the other side of the road.

It is not only drivers - there is the utterly moronic campaign from British Cycling calling for the Highway Code to be changed to so that turning vehicles give way to overtakers:
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/campaigning/article/20181018-campaigning-Boardman-hails-further-progress-for-Turning-the-Corner-0

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mjr
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Re: Why do drivers think this acceptable?

Postby mjr » 4 Jul 2019, 3:08pm

Pete Owens wrote:
mediumbird wrote:... Cycling back from the gym, looking to turn right down a quiet side road, check clear to move to the middle, arm out indicating right, and what happens.? Well, about 50 feet from the turn off two cars think it acceptable to pass me on the right on the other side of the road.

It is not only drivers - there is the utterly moronic campaign from British Cycling calling for the Highway Code to be changed to so that turning vehicles give way to overtakers:
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/campaigning/article/20181018-campaigning-Boardman-hails-further-progress-for-Turning-the-Corner-0

That's still an incorrect interpretation of it, as explained over in viewtopic.php?f=7&t=115515
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Pete Owens
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Re: Why do drivers think this acceptable?

Postby Pete Owens » 4 Jul 2019, 4:43pm

mjr wrote:
Pete Owens wrote:
mediumbird wrote:... Cycling back from the gym, looking to turn right down a quiet side road, check clear to move to the middle, arm out indicating right, and what happens.? Well, about 50 feet from the turn off two cars think it acceptable to pass me on the right on the other side of the road.

It is not only drivers - there is the utterly moronic campaign from British Cycling calling for the Highway Code to be changed to so that turning vehicles give way to overtakers:
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/campaigning/article/20181018-campaigning-Boardman-hails-further-progress-for-Turning-the-Corner-0

That's still an incorrect interpretation of it, as explained over in viewtopic.php?f=7&t=115515

It is the only explanation:
British Cycling wrote:We launched our Turning the Corner campaign in December 2016, calling for a universal rule to give way when turning.

There is no way of spinning this to mean a complex restricted rule to give way to whichever vehicle mjr happens to be in command of at the time. You are are repeatedly on record claiming that overtaking turning vehicles is perfectly safe so long as the overtakee keeps a proper lookout - so it is a bit rich posting in support of the OP in this case.

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mjr
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Re: Why do drivers think this acceptable?

Postby mjr » 4 Jul 2019, 5:29pm

Pete Owens wrote:
mjr wrote:
Pete Owens wrote:It is not only drivers - there is the utterly moronic campaign from British Cycling calling for the Highway Code to be changed to so that turning vehicles give way to overtakers:
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/campaigning/article/20181018-campaigning-Boardman-hails-further-progress-for-Turning-the-Corner-0

That's still an incorrect interpretation of it, as explained over in viewtopic.php?f=7&t=115515

It is the only explanation:
British Cycling wrote:We launched our Turning the Corner campaign in December 2016, calling for a universal rule to give way when turning.

There is no way of spinning this to mean a complex restricted rule to give way to whichever vehicle mjr happens to be in command of at the time. You are are repeatedly on record claiming that overtaking turning vehicles is perfectly safe so long as the overtakee keeps a proper lookout - so it is a bit rich posting in support of the OP in this case.

It's a very simple rule: traffic travelling contraflow in a lane gives way to traffic turning across that lane and both give way to traffic travelling normally in that lane.

It's encoded more wordily in the Vienna Convention on Road Traffic: "drivers shall overtake on the side appropriate to the direction of traffic [=left in UK] if the driver to be overtaken has signalled his intention to turn to the side of the carriageway opposite to that appropriate to the direction of traffic and has moved his vehicle or animals over towards that side in order to turn [...] Any driver wishing to perform a manoeuvre such as pulling out of or into a line of parked vehicles, moving over to the right or to the left on the carriageway, or turning left or right into another road or into a property bordering on the road, shall first make sure that he can do so without risk of endangering other road-users travelling behind or ahead of him or about to pass him, having regard to their position, direction and speed."

Now, how would you summarise the current bodge-up of UK practices? That'll be a very complex rule.

I don't agree with all the phrasing of BC's campaign but it is fundamentally flawed that so many UK bus and/or cycle lanes currently end in markings basically directing users to give way to turning/moving-over traffic coming from behind them.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Pete Owens
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Re: Why do drivers think this acceptable?

Postby Pete Owens » 5 Jul 2019, 2:01pm

mjr wrote:I don't agree with all the phrasing of BC's campaign

Which is rather different trying to gaslight us all claiming that it is campaigning for something completely different. And since the campaign is entirely about changing the wording of the rules of the road then disagreeing with the phrasing is pretty fundamental.

The key is in the word "universal"; look it up a dictionary.
The campaign clearly and unambiguously calls for turning traffic (ie the OP in this case) to give way to overtaking traffic.

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mjr
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Re: Why do drivers think this acceptable?

Postby mjr » 5 Jul 2019, 2:57pm

Pete Owens wrote:
mjr wrote:I don't agree with all the phrasing of BC's campaign

Which is rather different trying to gaslight us all claiming that it is campaigning for something completely different. And since the campaign is entirely about changing the wording of the rules of the road then disagreeing with the phrasing is pretty fundamental.

The key is in the word "universal"; look it up a dictionary.
The campaign clearly and unambiguously calls for turning traffic (ie the OP in this case) to give way to overtaking traffic.

That's rude, buzzwordy, misleading and fails to answer the question: can you summarise the current UK rule as succinctly as I did the international one?

Are you really happy with the current situation where cyclists have to give way to turning vehicles approaching from behind, even on the carriageway? I remain of the opinion you've got this one wrong.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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ThePinkOne
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Re: Why do drivers think this acceptable?

Postby ThePinkOne » 5 Jul 2019, 3:11pm

In reply to the OP: most drivers of any motorised vehicle probably don't think it's acceptable.

That said, a trend I notice developing amongst all road users is an attitude of "I'm bigger than you so you should give way to me."

There are 2 motor vehicles that I use- a very small private car and a work van which is a long wheel-base high top thingummy. I get treated very differently in my van and car.

In my car, I notice quite a bit of attempted bullying of drivers of all vehicles smaller than themselves (including me) by drivers of SUV-type vehicles- particularly the recent proliferation of Wange Wovers and fancy Renault SUVs (the ones they are constantly advertising PCP deals for on the radio). Getting worse than the traditional Germanic brands in some areas.

In my van, I don't anything like as much of that. OK, so some of it is because if some ijit tailgates really close to the back, I can't see them anyway in the van, but I get cut up much less too.

Being like that in motor vehicles, I'll let others extrapolate the trend to cycles (I am far more careful where I cycle these days for the same reason, since I stopped commuting I find it much more difficult to deal with cars when I cycle on busier roads).

Overall I'd say it's a minority of road users behaving like ijits (in the same way as cyclists behaving badly towards pedestrians are very much the minority), although certain times of day are very much worse than others for ijit level in any one location- school run is the nightmar-est time IMO. (Unfortunately the badly-bahaved minorities tend to be the most visible members of all "groups" of people).

Lack of courtesy and lack of consequence (as no traffic police) is what it seems to be. Lack of courtesy being I think a reflection of the way society as a whole has become more aggressive (am I sounding like an old fogey now....?? :oops: ). I don't think it's cyclist specific TBH, just that cyclists are much more vulnerable and also more easily identified/visible as being "not one of my tribe" so getting even LESS courtesy than other vehicles.

TPO
Last edited by ThePinkOne on 5 Jul 2019, 3:15pm, edited 1 time in total.

skyhawk
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Re: Why do drivers think this acceptable?

Postby skyhawk » 5 Jul 2019, 3:14pm

mediumbird wrote:Not really expecting an answer, just want to let off steam. Cycling back from the gym, looking to turn right down a quiet side road, check clear to move to the middle, arm out indicating right, and what happens.? Well, about 50 feet from the turn off two cars think it acceptable to pass me on the right on the other side of the road. I even looked straight at them incredulously. After they passed I then got the single finger salute from the driver.
If I had been in a car they wouldn't have overtaken me, or on a motorbike or scooter, so why us it acceptable to do that to a cyclist.. And why is it acceptable to be abusive to a middle aged female, or any cyclist?
I must get some cameras as there is a local police drive to improve cycling safety with use of undercover cyclists, and may be they would have been interested in some footage. Any bike camera recommendations? Would need to be able to easily swap between bikes. What does the collective think of Cycliq cameras?
Incidents like these make me despair of the human race....
Thanks for letting me offload!



Not wishing to upset anyone but isn't that just life................ scum...............happens all the time

I slow down and move RIGHT out for cyclists, people with animals, horses (I in fact STOP and let them pass), people with children and believe me I am not a good motorist but I admit it.

But what about cyclists who ride on pavements with no regard for the safety OR law for pedestrians, or motorbikes who couldn't care less overtaking on double whites and cutting up everyone,

Its life

GET cameras, I have and report it, don't complain DO something
Both I and my son are Autistic. We have aspergers and ADHD, not stupid :). If I sound "blunt" in my posts, please be understanding : I am not perfect. Thank you. Visit https://www.asdinfowales.co.uk/ to learn more

ThePinkOne
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Re: Why do drivers think this acceptable?

Postby ThePinkOne » 5 Jul 2019, 3:34pm

skyhawk wrote:
mediumbird wrote:Not really expecting an answer, just want to let off steam. Cycling back from the gym, looking to turn right down a quiet side road, check clear to move to the middle, arm out indicating right, and what happens.? Well, about 50 feet from the turn off two cars think it acceptable to pass me on the right on the other side of the road. I even looked straight at them incredulously. After they passed I then got the single finger salute from the driver.
If I had been in a car they wouldn't have overtaken me, or on a motorbike or scooter, so why us it acceptable to do that to a cyclist.. And why is it acceptable to be abusive to a middle aged female, or any cyclist?
I must get some cameras as there is a local police drive to improve cycling safety with use of undercover cyclists, and may be they would have been interested in some footage. Any bike camera recommendations? Would need to be able to easily swap between bikes. What does the collective think of Cycliq cameras?
Incidents like these make me despair of the human race....
Thanks for letting me offload!



Not wishing to upset anyone but isn't that just life................ scum...............happens all the time

I slow down and move RIGHT out for cyclists, people with animals, horses (I in fact STOP and let them pass), people with children and believe me I am not a good motorist but I admit it.

But what about cyclists who ride on pavements with no regard for the safety OR law for pedestrians, or motorbikes who couldn't care less overtaking on double whites and cutting up everyone,

Its life

GET cameras, I have and report it, don't complain DO something


Yup, morons in every sector. As a fellow autistic, I could argue it's the neurotypical "need" for social status that's the real problem....... 8) :wink:

Being a lottle more serious.

We live in a society which over the past 30 years or so has become hyper-socialised (via internet) and at the same time more infantalised, individualistic and more craving of unearned status; status being in part measured by level of possessions and how noisy a person is. For many (most?) people, status means more than anything else- hence we hear of kids who just want to be famous; not actually do anything deserving of fame, but just be famous. "Me me me me me. I am the most important. My needs matter mostest. I am worth it, I have the bestest trainers so I am better than you, look at me, look at me, look at me." <mental image of a frantic, panting cartoon dog craving attention>.

Of course, in previous years as folk grew up they got control of such hyper-socialised impulses, but restraint and consideration of fellow-people seems to have become unfashionable, and equally many neurotypicals assume that everyone thinks like them so they know what others think know their way is the right/correct/normal one (they dont, they don't, not necessarily). That trend in turn seems to drive more tribal behaviour and willingness to be nasty to "them" (whoever "them" happen to be at that moment).

Cars are a massive status symbol, the badge, looks and so on- and of course the "music" (correction, horrid noise) the emanates loudly from it. The idea of not disturbing others with such horrid noise (or any other characteristic of the vehicle) just doesn't register. That I think is the elephant in the room and the biggest barrier to people cycling instead of using cars.

(I admit I may be biased: I am very noise-sensitive, and have no sense of status; I have practical vehicles, comfortable clothes and my bliss is quiet countryside with birds singing or a quiet remote sea-shore).

TPO

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tykeboy2003
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Re: Why do drivers think this acceptable?

Postby tykeboy2003 » 5 Jul 2019, 9:38pm

mediumbird wrote:Cycling back from the gym, looking to turn right down a quiet side road, check clear to move to the middle, arm out indicating right, and what happens.? Well, about 50 feet from the turn off two cars think it acceptable to pass me on the right on the other side of the road. I even looked straight at them incredulously. After they passed I then got the single finger salute from the driver.


This used to happen to me a lot at a particular junction at a particular time of day (about 8 in the morning). It was always youngish drivers and mostly women. They seemed to have no idea that they had done anything wrong and obviously couldn't understand why I was so upset about it. Thankfully I now don't use that junction at that time of day so it's not happened for some time.