Dogs off lead on shared use path

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mjr
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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby mjr » 15 Jul 2019, 11:57am

gaz wrote:Highway Code
56
Dogs. Do not let a dog out on the road on its own. Keep it on a short lead when walking on the pavement, road or path shared with cyclists or horse riders.

Advisory. Mankind has had a close relationship with dogs much longer than it has with bicycles, which may explain why mentioning the HC advice is unhelpful in situations such as the OP faced.

The HC is advisory about keeping them on leads, but I'm 80% confident that there is law against allowing out of control dogs on a highway ("the pavement, road or path shared") - it's probably buried in the Dangerous Dogs Act.

gaz wrote:Any court judgement or out of court insurance settlement will be determined by the facts of the individual case.

Indeed: no-one gets blanket permission to ride roughshod over others.
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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby mjr » 15 Jul 2019, 12:01pm

Cugel wrote:But cycling infrastructure, including shared paths, will save us all from certain car-bite! Or so I have been told. Such paths cannot possibly engender problems for the now completely safe cyclists and pedestrians.

It's not the paths' fault! It's the users who ignore the few rules that there are, just like carriageways would be perfectly safe if all users complied... but they don't, especially not Brits, and the consequences of rule-breaking motorists are far worse on average than those of rule-breaking dog-walkers.

Cugel wrote:On the other hand, perhaps there is a Pedestrianing UK website where pedestrians go on and on about the dangers of cyclists and the need to have a pedestrian (and dog) infrastructure where no bad things are allowed to happen, especially if they involve anything on two wheels.

Some Living Streets (formerly the Pedestrians' Association) local groups are basically that, although their national policy is to work with cycling groups.

Cugel wrote:Then there will be separate infrastructure for dogs; and pushchairs; and children (they can so easily trip up an innocent adult); and runners; and for the slow as opposed to the fastwalkers; and ......

Cugel, exploring logical implications.

PS Have you shared-path riders tried the roads? They seem so much safer. :-)

Your "logical implications" are actually the slippery slope fallacy, not logical at all!
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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby AMMoffat » 15 Jul 2019, 1:35pm

I might play devil's advocate and suggest that, since the OP has admitted to seeing the 4 dogs offlead and knowing that dogs can be unpredictable, he should not have been in the least bit surprised when one ran across his path and should have anticipated it.

The above in no way condones the stupidity of the owner for putting her dogs in that situation but we have to deal with the world as we find it, not as we wish it to be.

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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby mjr » 15 Jul 2019, 2:13pm

AMMoffat wrote:I might play devil's advocate and suggest that, since the OP has admitted to seeing the 4 dogs offlead and knowing that dogs can be unpredictable, he should not have been in the least bit surprised when one ran across his path and should have anticipated it.

I'm not sure how that's playing devil's advocate. It sounds like he did anticipate well: 8mph, didn't fall, just a gentle tyre tap on what sounds a rather anxious and flighty badly-trained dog with an incompetent owner.

AMMoffat wrote:The above in no way condones the stupidity of the owner for putting her dogs in that situation but we have to deal with the world as we find it, not as we wish it to be.

To an extent. I think it is still fine to ask what the current law is and what should happen if, say, the darting dog had hit him broadside and a resulting fall damaged his bike.
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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby mattheus » 15 Jul 2019, 2:31pm

AMMoffat wrote:... but we have to deal with the world as we find it, not as we wish it to be.


You know, sometimes changing the world as we wish can improve it for others, too.

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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby AMMoffat » 15 Jul 2019, 2:52pm

mattheus wrote:
AMMoffat wrote:... but we have to deal with the world as we find it, not as we wish it to be.


You know, sometimes changing the world as we wish can improve it for others, too.


I completely agree, but the here and now also has to be dealt with.

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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby AMMoffat » 15 Jul 2019, 3:04pm

mjr wrote:
AMMoffat wrote:I might play devil's advocate and suggest that, since the OP has admitted to seeing the 4 dogs offlead and knowing that dogs can be unpredictable, he should not have been in the least bit surprised when one ran across his path and should have anticipated it.

I'm not sure how that's playing devil's advocate. It sounds like he did anticipate well: 8mph, didn't fall, just a gentle tyre tap on what sounds a rather anxious and flighty badly-trained dog with an incompetent owner.


Was the dog badly trained? Certainly it was offlead but it might not even have known the OP was there. Did the OP say something or sound his bell so the dog knew he was there? I was merely pointing out that it would have been far better not to hit the dog as it was hardly the dog's fault it was offlead.


mjr wrote: To an extent. I think it is still fine to ask what the current law is and what should happen if, say, the darting dog had hit him broadside and a resulting fall damaged his bike.


Agreed.

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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby skyhawk » 15 Jul 2019, 3:46pm

rob_wales wrote:
gaz wrote:Any court judgement or out of court insurance settlement will be determined by the facts of the individual case.

I agree, but the only facts that I could see were that she had four dogs off the lead, and there were witnesses to that effect. She might have claimed I was going too fast, but I wasn't and she could not have proved that I was if she claimed that.



There are two problems

1. You need evidence hence a gopro is essential, and sorry, helmet mounted, YOU may see and capture the start of an incident when you see the dog or child come to that leaping out at you, running in front of you but mounted on the handlebars it misses that moment.

2. You need to get the persons name and address, unless they are under pressure from onlookers all you will get is abuse, that means you are limited to the video to give to the Police and having to follow them at a discrete distance hoping to get their car details or house when they return.
Both I and my son are Autistic. We have aspergers and ADHD, not stupid :). If I sound "blunt" in my posts, please be understanding : I am not perfect. Thank you. Visit https://www.asdinfowales.co.uk/ to learn more

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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby mattheus » 15 Jul 2019, 3:50pm

AMMoffat wrote:
mattheus wrote:
AMMoffat wrote:... but we have to deal with the world as we find it, not as we wish it to be.


You know, sometimes changing the world as we wish can improve it for others, too.


I completely agree, but the here and now also has to be dealt with.

Some dog owners are using extendable leads right now - and will doubtless continue to do so.

Some of us think that is worth addressing - it may help dogs, their owners, and cyclists not on this forum.

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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby Cugel » 15 Jul 2019, 5:06pm

AMMoffat wrote:I might play devil's advocate and suggest that, since the OP has admitted to seeing the 4 dogs offlead and knowing that dogs can be unpredictable, he should not have been in the least bit surprised when one ran across his path and should have anticipated it.

The above in no way condones the stupidity of the owner for putting her dogs in that situation but we have to deal with the world as we find it, not as we wish it to be.


Not if we're human! We humans much prefer imaginary places and people, who are all perfek and would be real if only the 6.999999 billion other humans would, well, stop being human like them to be humans like us. Of course they all think the same, them other humans, only with a different model of the perfek world in their wee heads. So we'll have a war or summick.

Of course, many humans try to actually make the world as they find it into a different one, as the real one seems to lack comfort not to mention being full of wrong things, especially other-human wrong things. We have made also the anthropocene with it's overlay of human stuff an everything - everything. This has made some of us a bit more comfortable for a while but the unintended consequences are about to call with the bill.

Still, some lads won't notice the impending doom and will go out seeking other humans with dogs to test for correct behaviour (as they see it) in the hope that they will find it to be incorrect so they can moan and carp then feel very self-righteous. :-)

Cugel

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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby rob_wales » 15 Jul 2019, 5:30pm

Cugel wrote:Not if we're human! We humans much prefer imaginary places and people, who are all perfek and would be real if only the 6.999999 billion other humans would...
Cugel

I'm not being pedantic, but that figure is incorrect. It's actually 7,717,806,387 or 7.7 billion. But that is the real problem in a way - there are just too many people in the world, and of course they are not evenly distributed. The contention over resources due to changing population numbers can cause real instability. It was one of the factors in Brexit. It's also a major factor in climate change. And it's also a factor on my cycle path which used to have reasonably light traffic most of the time, but is now often overcrowded. Don't look at this link if you have a nervous disposition! :D https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/

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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby mjr » 15 Jul 2019, 5:42pm

Cugel wrote:Not if we're human! We humans much prefer imaginary places and people, who are all perfek and would be real if only the 6.999999 billion other humans would, well, stop being human like them to be humans like us. Of course they all think the same, them other humans, only with a different model of the perfek world in their wee heads. So we'll have a war or summick.

Will we? It feels like all these petty battles between different types of road users are a peculiarly British phenomenon. In other countries, people just seem to rub along together and share space much more nicely.

For example, on Saturday, I rode into the centre of Rotterdam, right up to the market stalls, perfectly legally and without incident. It was crowded and slow at times, but there was none of the sort of passive-aggressive dicking about like deliberately spreading out to ten-abreast as soon as they see a cyclist that I've met in England in the few places where I'm allowed to ride in such busy areas (despite the national guidelines that say we should).

And more than that, there were signs marking the edge of where cycling was allowed while the market was on and almost every rider stopped there, either locking their bikes up at that point, or more often dismounting and pushing to the market stall, cafe or flat they were going to. You still get a few young hoons wobbling on past that point, but it looks a lot less typical against a background of most other riders complying. And you know what? None of the cycle parking was inside the no-cycling zone, unlike the UK. And other useful things like drinking water fountains were where you can ride right up to them.

I've had similar experiences in almost every country I've ridden in, except the USA. In Italy, I even saw a cyclist collide with an outdoor shop display by mistake and they simply apologised and they and the shop worker just got on and put it back together. No swearing and calling all nearby cyclists scourges or worse.

Is there something in the British character that makes us selfish now? Could it be as simple as these high-cycling-number towns and cities abroad are just so much nicer places to live, what with the lower pollution and congestion and happier people who can actually talk to each other as they pass, that people are less stressed and relate to each other and empathise/sympathise, instead of seeing everyone else as competitors for the 3x8m space they want for their car?
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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby rob_wales » 15 Jul 2019, 5:52pm

AMMoffat wrote:I might play devil's advocate and suggest that, since the OP has admitted to seeing the 4 dogs offlead and knowing that dogs can be unpredictable, he should not have been in the least bit surprised when one ran across his path and should have anticipated it.

The above in no way condones the stupidity of the owner for putting her dogs in that situation but we have to deal with the world as we find it, not as we wish it to be.


Nice try, but I'm afraid you are wrong. I am, as I pointed out a very cautious person, in fact I'm quite obsessive about it. This was the first time in 53 years of cycling that I have ever run into anything living. In 50 years car driving I have had one accident, a serious one, which was caused by, guess what? A dog ran out off-lead from a car at the side of the road. Nearly killed me. Which brings in your second point about dealing with the world as I find it. Had that car crash killed me (which it very nearly did) I wouldn't be able to deal with anything as I wouldn't be here now!

In the incident yesterday I could possibly have braked harder a bit sooner, but there were two problems with that

1. My wife was directly behind me and she has a steel pin in her arm and has to be very careful not to come off her bike.
2. The surface was ribbed concrete with some loose sand (next to beach) and grit. I had started to turn. Had I come off I could have had a nasty injury.

I do feel very sorry for the dog. In much the same way that I feel very sorry for the obese kids I see having junk food shoved into their mouths by irresponsible parents. Still, I suppose those parents are 'dealing with the world as they find it' as well.
Last edited by rob_wales on 15 Jul 2019, 6:25pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby rob_wales » 15 Jul 2019, 6:00pm

mjr wrote:Is there something in the British character that makes us selfish now?

Brexit.

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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby gaz » 15 Jul 2019, 8:14pm

mjr wrote: - it's probably buried in the Dangerous Dogs Act

Section 3 of the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991:
3 Keeping dogs under proper control.
(1)If a dog is dangerously out of control in a public place—
(a)the owner; and
(b)if different, the person for the time being in charge of the dog,is guilty of an offence, or, if the dog while so out of control injures any person, an aggravated offence, under this subsection.

There might be other bits of the DDA but we are heading into hypothetical situation territory. In the sequence of events described by the OP it is hard for me to consider the dog as “dangerously out of control”, YMMV.
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