Dogs off lead on shared use path

Commuting, Day rides, Audax, Incidents, etc.
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Cugel
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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby Cugel » 15 Jul 2019, 9:25pm

rob_wales wrote:
AMMoffat wrote:I might play devil's advocate and suggest that, since the OP has admitted to seeing the 4 dogs offlead and knowing that dogs can be unpredictable, he should not have been in the least bit surprised when one ran across his path and should have anticipated it.

The above in no way condones the stupidity of the owner for putting her dogs in that situation but we have to deal with the world as we find it, not as we wish it to be.


Nice try, but I'm afraid you are wrong. I am, as I pointed out a very cautious person, in fact I'm quite obsessive about it. This was the first time in 53 years of cycling that I have ever run into anything living. In 50 years car driving I have had one accident, a serious one, which was caused by, guess what? A dog ran out off-lead from a car at the side of the road. Nearly killed me. Which brings in your second point about dealing with the world as I find it. Had that car crash killed me (which it very nearly did) I wouldn't be able to deal with anything as I wouldn't be here now!

In the incident yesterday I could possibly have braked harder a bit sooner, but there were two problems with that

1. My wife was directly behind me and she has a steel pin in her arm and has to be very careful not to come off her bike.
2. The surface was ribbed concrete with some loose sand (next to beach) and grit. I had started to turn. Had I come off I could have had a nasty injury.

I do feel very sorry for the dog. In much the same way that I feel very sorry for the obese kids I see having junk food shoved into their mouths by irresponsible parents. Still, I suppose those parents are 'dealing with the world as they find it' as well.


So, in 50 years two incidents. which may or may not have been due to the dog or to your inattention. (There are two sides to every story, see)? Must all dogs be banned, curbed, restrained, restricted, locked up or even done away with because of this? One feels there is an over-reaction on your part, to a minor matter.

But I suppose you feel that your safety should be guaranteed even in the 50 year gap. What other behaviours of other creatures, including the various humans, should be curbed in pursuit of this objective of ultimate safety? Personally I would curb the car ... but that kills and maims millions every year, world wide; and pollutes in a whole range of ways. One feels the dogs are not that bad, although we could certainly do with far, far less of the dangerous and polluting humans.

Cugel

AMMoffat
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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby AMMoffat » 15 Jul 2019, 10:37pm

rob_wales wrote:
AMMoffat wrote:I might play devil's advocate and suggest that, since the OP has admitted to seeing the 4 dogs offlead and knowing that dogs can be unpredictable, he should not have been in the least bit surprised when one ran across his path and should have anticipated it.

The above in no way condones the stupidity of the owner for putting her dogs in that situation but we have to deal with the world as we find it, not as we wish it to be.


Nice try, but I'm afraid you are wrong. I am, as I pointed out a very cautious person, in fact I'm quite obsessive about it. This was the first time in 53 years of cycling that I have ever run into anything living. In 50 years car driving I have had one accident, a serious one, which was caused by, guess what? A dog ran out off-lead from a car at the side of the road. Nearly killed me. Which brings in your second point about dealing with the world as I find it. Had that car crash killed me (which it very nearly did) I wouldn't be able to deal with anything as I wouldn't be here now!

In the incident yesterday I could possibly have braked harder a bit sooner, but there were two problems with that

1. My wife was directly behind me and she has a steel pin in her arm and has to be very careful not to come off her bike.
2. The surface was ribbed concrete with some loose sand (next to beach) and grit. I had started to turn. Had I come off I could have had a nasty injury.

I do feel very sorry for the dog. In much the same way that I feel very sorry for the obese kids I see having junk food shoved into their mouths by irresponsible parents. Still, I suppose those parents are 'dealing with the world as they find it' as well.


As I said in my original post I was playing devil's advocate and of course I do realise that accidents happen. However, I do make a serious point in that we often are so furious at irresponsible dog owners that we forget that a shout or a ring of a bell can also alert a dog to our presence and increase the chance of avoiding a collision to the benefit of both dog and ourselves.

I am pleased that on this occasion no damage was done to dog or man :)

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 16 Jul 2019, 9:39am

Hi,
I have had many dogs bounce off my bike whilst I am being chased.
The panniers the front wheel spokes my pedals, have all been the target of unruly dogs.
The owners simply look the other way :roll:

I bite my time breath deeply And carry on, the alternative is what you already know.

One such dog owner has now taken to assaulting me on a cycle path, What do you do then, don't bother with the police they're a waste of space.
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Cugel
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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby Cugel » 16 Jul 2019, 11:46am

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
I have had many dogs bounce off my bike whilst I am being chased.
The panniers the front wheel spokes my pedals, have all been the target of unruly dogs.
The owners simply look the other way :roll:

I bite my time breath deeply And carry on, the alternative is what you already know.

One such dog owner has now taken to assaulting me on a cycle path, What do you do then, don't bother with the police they're a waste of space.


How strange. In 60 years of cycling I've never hit a dog (or anything else). Perhaps you are giving off anti-dog rays, which will annoy some dogs as they feel they should be treated with consideration and not cycled-at? :-)

As I recall, you have trouble with other humans bouncing off your bike. Have you considered a different style of cycling?

Cugel

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 16 Jul 2019, 12:04pm

Hi,
Cugel wrote:
NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
I have had many dogs bounce off my bike whilst I am being chased.
The panniers the front wheel spokes my pedals, have all been the target of unruly dogs.
The owners simply look the other way :roll:

I bite my time breath deeply And carry on, the alternative is what you already know.

One such dog owner has now taken to assaulting me on a cycle path, What do you do then, don't bother with the police they're a waste of space.


How strange. In 60 years of cycling I've never hit a dog (or anything else). Perhaps you are giving off anti-dog rays, which will annoy some dogs as they feel they should be treated with consideration and not cycled-at? :-)

As I recall, you have trouble with other humans bouncing off your bike. Have you considered a different style of cycling?

Cugel


One - never said hit a dog!
Dogs have hit my bike etc.
Two - Once hit a human when they walked into the road and a car was on my right shoving me into gutter whilst cycling home from school, actually hit their briefcase, neither was hurt at all.

I am another very safe conscientious rider, my safety is above all other things first, no cyclist even wants to hit a squirrel, they can down you for sure.
Never had an insurance claim against me and never claimed off my own insurance when I wanted to redecorate my kitchen.
Sorry only riding bike for 52 years, dog owner for 25 years.

Maybe you live in some sort of utopia cugel :)

Yes maybe my wheels are emitting a hyper signal that draws dogs in to them, its not the dogs fault.
If You Don't Try You Don't Do.....Don't Do You Don't Get...I'm Still Trying....Well Very..
You'll Find Me At The Top Of A Hill...............Somewhere...After Dark..

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Cugel
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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby Cugel » 16 Jul 2019, 12:30pm

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
Cugel wrote:
NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
I have had many dogs bounce off my bike whilst I am being chased.
The panniers the front wheel spokes my pedals, have all been the target of unruly dogs.
The owners simply look the other way :roll:

I bite my time breath deeply And carry on, the alternative is what you already know.

One such dog owner has now taken to assaulting me on a cycle path, What do you do then, don't bother with the police they're a waste of space.


How strange. In 60 years of cycling I've never hit a dog (or anything else). Perhaps you are giving off anti-dog rays, which will annoy some dogs as they feel they should be treated with consideration and not cycled-at? :-)

As I recall, you have trouble with other humans bouncing off your bike. Have you considered a different style of cycling?

Cugel


One - never said hit a dog!
Dogs have hit my bike etc.
Two - Once hit a human when they walked into the road and a car was on my right shoving me into gutter whilst cycling home from school, actually hit their briefcase, neither was hurt at all.

I am another very safe conscientious rider, my safety is above all other things first, no cyclist even wants to hit a squirrel, they can down you for sure.
Never had an insurance claim against me and never claimed off my own insurance when I wanted to redecorate my kitchen.
Sorry only riding bike for 52 years, dog owner for 25 years.

Maybe you live in some sort of utopia cugel :)

Yes maybe my wheels are emitting a hyper signal that draws dogs in to them, its not the dogs fault.


I do live in a small utopia of my own construction. It does keep falling down but I sticks it back together toot sweet with bits of old spoke and handlebar tape. But the best technique is to amend the utopia so it's as alike to the real world as possible. This does involve putting up with other humans, dogs, cats and sometimes a weasel.

Would you like some lessons in how to be nice to dogs so that they all love you and never bounce off your bike? Only £127 an hour (+ VAT).

Cugel, a practical sociologist.

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 16 Jul 2019, 1:30pm

Hi,
On dogs, you have to treat them so they know their place in the family.
So although we love them to bits loving them too much means they get the upper hand.

And I loved my dogs to bits, So my advice as before is simple, I would never let anything with wheels get between me and my dog for its own safety.
And there in lies the problem, do you agree.
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robing
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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby robing » 16 Jul 2019, 9:53pm

I think dog owners are getting worse like the rest of society. Sense of entitlement their dog can do no wrong. Their the same with their kids.

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rob_wales
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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby rob_wales » 16 Jul 2019, 10:36pm

robing wrote:I think dog owners are getting worse like the rest of society. Sense of entitlement their dog can do no wrong. Their the same with their kids.


Completely agree. You have very succinctly got to the problem. OP.

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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby tykeboy2003 » 17 Jul 2019, 7:30am

rob_wales wrote:I've noticed that a lot of road-bike people deliberately ignore cycle-paths when they run alongside a road.


I seldom use separate cycle paths next to roads unless it's a particularly dangerous road (dual carriage way for example). Often they are more dangerous than the road, near me there's one which runs on the pavement and involves having to give way at several side roads and then dumps you back on the road about 10 yards from a roundabout..... Complete waste of space. Oh and I've had abuse from drivers for not using it.

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby NATURAL ANKLING » 17 Jul 2019, 9:27am

Hi,
tykeboy2003 wrote:
rob_wales wrote:I've noticed that a lot of road-bike people deliberately ignore cycle-paths when they run alongside a road.


I seldom use separate cycle paths next to roads unless it's a particularly dangerous road (dual carriage way for example). Often they are more dangerous than the road, near me there's one which runs on the pavement and involves having to give way at several side roads and then dumps you back on the road about 10 yards from a roundabout..... Complete waste of space. Oh and I've had abuse from drivers for not using it.

+1
Do planners ever ride these obstacle courses.
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Cugel
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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby Cugel » 17 Jul 2019, 11:09am

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
On dogs, you have to treat them so they know their place in the family.
So although we love them to bits loving them too much means they get the upper hand.

And I loved my dogs to bits, So my advice as before is simple, I would never let anything with wheels get between me and my dog for its own safety.
And there in lies the problem, do you agree.


Yes I agree, for one. My own scheme would be for pets to require a stringent owner-test followed by a licensing arrangement requiring periodic inspections of the conditions of keeping as well as the mode of treatment. This would be in the Cugel Dictatorship (to be arranged any day now by the ladywife) where many things would be so much better. Oh yes they would!

Until then, I find it best to treat dogs, as well as everything else in the world, as a potential hazard estimated on how things are rather than how things ought to be, in my dictatorship or yours. :-)

Cugel dog-competence tested every day by two collies.

mattheus
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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby mattheus » 17 Jul 2019, 11:17am

Of course having any sort of rules that lead to mutual benefit, reduced harm, and a general increase in wellbeing is just a slippery slope to dictatorships.

Thank you cugel *again* for sharing your wisdom!

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Cugel
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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby Cugel » 17 Jul 2019, 11:19am

rob_wales wrote:
robing wrote:I think dog owners are getting worse like the rest of society. Sense of entitlement their dog can do no wrong. Their the same with their kids.


Completely agree. You have very succinctly got to the problem. OP.


That's one way of looking at the problem. But, apart from a Cugel or Wales or Robing Dictatorship wherein naughty people are somehow all made not-naughty, any problem definition needs to include a solution definition. Of course, you could instead just ride you bike into the dogs or cars or prattle-box pedestrians et al but this seems unlikely to keep working for long, as you will be dead of car-bite or even a particularly bad dog-bite..

My own solution is to be bluddy careful and to employ the long-honed cyclist sixth sense that can spot a loon or it's armature (such as dog or car) well in advance of a potential loon-incident. So far so good, in 60 years of cycling - apart from the drugged-up driver who pranged me in June 1980 coming out of a side road. (That was a lesson-learnt too, only the hard way).

People will always be horrible little self-centred skinbags. In some countries it is, as you note, the dominant fashion. I often explain to people I come across the foolishness of fashions but do they listen to my pearls? No, hence the need for a Cugel Dictatorship (patent pending).

Cugelissimo

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Cugel
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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby Cugel » 17 Jul 2019, 11:26am

mattheus wrote:Of course having any sort of rules that lead to mutual benefit, reduced harm, and a general increase in wellbeing is just a slippery slope to dictatorships.

Thank you cugel *again* for sharing your wisdom!


No, no - must I explain every jot and line of my essays? One may have a polity with lots of rules, regulations and many other arrangements for making a civil society. My dictatorship will, of course, be such a-one - ever so benevolent, it'll be (apart to the miscreants).

Even without the dictator, there can be a civil society with them rules and regs you allude to. However, not only must they be good ones, they must also be enforced. This does require a little bit of dictating, via rozzer, beak and even the odd gaoler. You may have noticed a certain lack of these things (well, except for the 3rd rate gaolers) of late? What to do? Shall we rely on everyone coming to their senses and expressing the better angel of their nature? Ha! It'll be a long wait.

So, I do favour a much tougher nanny to keep us all from being naughty boys and girls. A nanny with a bit of the dictatorial about her might be a good thing, until we've once more become civilised, with a balance of duties to stop the rights from breaking the scales of justice.

Cugel