Dogs off lead on shared use path

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mjr
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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby mjr » 17 Jul 2019, 12:07pm

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
tykeboy2003 wrote:
rob_wales wrote:I've noticed that a lot of road-bike people deliberately ignore cycle-paths when they run alongside a road.


I seldom use separate cycle paths next to roads unless it's a particularly dangerous road (dual carriage way for example). Often they are more dangerous than the road, near me there's one which runs on the pavement and involves having to give way at several side roads and then dumps you back on the road about 10 yards from a roundabout..... Complete waste of space. Oh and I've had abuse from drivers for not using it.

+1
Do planners ever ride these obstacle courses.

Some do. I know at least two of Norfolk's do. That tends to be why we get some cycleways which are actually worth using, which do stuff like curve out and cross roads at right angles, instead of the more common pattern of curving into a side road and requiring riders to have 270 degree visibility to cross safely. However, even the well-drawn ones are vulnerable to utterly clueless non-cycling safety auditors demanding changes that make them less safe, as well as the mundane bad maintenance leading to vegetation encroachment, root damage and potholes.
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brynpoeth
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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby brynpoeth » 17 Jul 2019, 7:31pm

roubaixtuesday of this parish asserted:
'most people are lovely'
Care to comment on that, Sir Cugel? :wink:
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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby Cugel » 18 Jul 2019, 12:29pm

brynpoeth wrote:roubaixtuesday of this parish asserted:
'most people are lovely'
Care to comment on that, Sir Cugel? :wink:


I would sample them all to check but:

i) There's too many.
ii) What is the definition of "lovely people"? Some definitions seem to rely only on the hairstyle.
iii) The rascals are often "lovely" one minute and right little ratbags the next! Cue more tedious checking then an average of results.

Personally I suffer the strange paradox of liking most people I meet and have intercourse with (not that sort of intercourse) but detesting humanity, and it's many nasty doings, en masse. Now and then I meet a horrid ghark or even a hoo. I apply a sark then run off quick. :-)

Cugel

pga
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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby pga » 21 Jul 2019, 12:06am

Dogs are a big problem on the Milton Keynes redway shared use network. We even have horses using some of the routes in spite of citywide horse trails. There are three types of dog walkers - those who use a short lead, those who use a long lead and those who use no lead. In addition there are those who cycle with a dog. They are easily the worse. The result is that you have to wide awake while cycling - no time to be daydreaming - and slow down to walking pace and even stop altogether in some cases when meeting a dog and walker, which on my most used route can be every 100 metres. A the start of a ride this is easier to cope with rather than after a 70 miles club run when a reasonable amount of tiredness has crept in, especially so at my age,

All this devious activity is in spite of a Redway code that clearly states that all dogs should be a short lead and, as pointed before, the Highway Code clearly stating the same. Sadly, this advice has failed to get to many dog walkers, just as much of the Highway Code has failed to get to many drivers. It is the same people who are often the most vehement in claiming that the problem is with the cyclist rather than realising that it is they who are the offending party.

So what can be done about this? There is a good working relationship between Cycling UK and the British Horse Society which has produced good advice for cyclists passing horses. There is no such body for dog owners. I always feel that most are freeloaders, never campaigning for new walking/cycling routes and the maintenance of existing ones, but are quick to use any new ones without acknowledging the campaigning that has gone on to create them, just as most motorists are unaware that it was the early cyclists who successfully campaigned for the paved roads that they now take for granted.

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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby Bonefishblues » 21 Jul 2019, 7:56am

pga wrote:So what can be done about this? There is a good working relationship between Cycling UK and the British Horse Society which has produced good advice for cyclists passing horses. There is no such body for dog owners. I always feel that most are freeloaders, never campaigning for new walking/cycling routes and the maintenance of existing ones, but are quick to use any new ones without acknowledging the campaigning that has gone on to create them, just as most motorists are unaware that it was the early cyclists who successfully campaigned for the paved roads that they now take for granted.

So there's another group to hate. Freeloaders, most of them, Isee. What should they do, doff their caps, perhaps, to acknowledge their gratitude to the campaigning groups who, presumably, did it in their own interests, just as those early cyclists did, too?

Most people and most group members are just regular people, and we can just get along, given a little give-and-take on both sides. MK has a network of routes that most in other towns would give their right arm for (I've been campaigning for a 'mere' 150 metres of shared use path which would transform our cycling experience herabouts, without success as yet) - so just go out and use and enjoy, and try to overcome the minor irritants! :D

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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby gazza_d » 21 Jul 2019, 8:17am

I ride a lot on NCN paths, often see dogwalkers. I've cycled for 35+ years, and had a couple of dogs.
My view is that all dogs should be on a lead on multi-use paths, mine always were, and the dogs were as they had grown up that way
99% of dog walkers I encounter are absolutely fine, but you do come across idiots.
4 excitable dogs off leads on a path is at best inconsiderate and I'd suggest uncontrollable. I'm no lawyer, but I suspect any court would take a dim view of that. Paths on sustrans land have signs about keeping dogs on lead. But basically you would not walk down a road with a pack of dogs off a lead.
The owners defensive aggressiveness suggests she knew she was wrong.
Hitting a dog whilst cycling is quite dangerous and could easily make the cyclist crash very heavily. Even a slow speed topple could break something.
As for legality, if you were injured then you could take the person to court via any insurance, or legal support. cyclists have successfully sued dog walkers for being brought down by extending leads.
Killing the dog is probably an unlikely outcome , but had you seriously injured it then owner could potentially pursue for vets bills which can be expensive. If you don;t have liability insurance, then get some. There is a outfit called Laka that actually do it for free.
In an incident like that I would treat like a road collision, ask for their name and address and that may hopefully scare them off anyway. The other course of action is once, down stay down and request police and ambulance
Since the recent court case involving the pedestrian who stepped out into path of a cyclist and then sued I'm considering putting cameras back on.

rob_wales wrote:Cycling this morning near my house. An off-road purpose built shared use path of tarmac and grit. Approaching a visitor centre I slowed down as I know there are often distracted people about. Went to make a left turn at about 8mph to leave the path and skirt around the centre when I saw a group of four dogs off-lead with the owner behind with a further dog on a lead. The dogs were excited and frisky but stayed together. So I slowed even more, applying the brakes. As I did so one of the dogs darted across my path and I had to do an emergency stop. I was almost at a stop when I made contact with the still moving dog. Caught it on the rear quarter and it gave out a great yelp and ran off. I started to fall having lost my balance and nearly came off.

The owner immediately started screaming at me and these are some of the things she said

"Didn't you see my dog, what if it had been a child?"

"you shouldn't be wearing sunglasses"

"This is not a cycle path" (It is and there are lots of signs for bikes and pedestrians)

The woman just ranted and ranted then marched off.

Had I killed the dog, who would have been to blame in law?

Had I been injured, as I nearly was, what redress would I have had?

It was impossible to talk to her as she just ranted, so I kept quiet. As far as I know there are no by-laws that require a lead on the path, but there might be. Assume there isn't.

I am always extremely careful when kids and dogs, and horses are on a path/road, and I am very safety conscious. I'm 66 years old.

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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby Cugel » 21 Jul 2019, 8:18am

Bonefishblues wrote:
pga wrote:So what can be done about this? There is a good working relationship between Cycling UK and the British Horse Society which has produced good advice for cyclists passing horses. There is no such body for dog owners. I always feel that most are freeloaders, never campaigning for new walking/cycling routes and the maintenance of existing ones, but are quick to use any new ones without acknowledging the campaigning that has gone on to create them, just as most motorists are unaware that it was the early cyclists who successfully campaigned for the paved roads that they now take for granted.

So there's another group to hate. Freeloaders, most of them, Isee. What should they do, doff their caps, perhaps, to acknowledge their gratitude to the campaigning groups who, presumably, did it in their own interests, just as those early cyclists did, too?

Most people and most group members are just regular people, and we can just get along, given a little give-and-take on both sides. MK has a network of routes that most in other towns would give their right arm for (I've been campaigning for a 'mere' 150 metres of shared use path which would transform our cycling experience herabouts, without success as yet) - so just go out and use and enjoy, and try to overcome the minor irritants! :D


Indeed! Here is my own response to the latest me-first dog-detestor, Mr pga:

Perhaps the answer to this entirely foreseeable problem is to remove the fundamental cause? That would be the cyclists. Let those who can share, share and those who can't go orf elsewhere.

Personally I like the idea of being able to walk freely and for the dogs to do so too. When there are no cyclists, this is not a problem on such pathways. I've walked thousands of miles with dogs on various sorts and only where there are cyclists is there a problem. Many are not a problem, of course .... but hurtlers who are tired from 70 mile club runs or aggressively superior for other reasons often are.

Now, as an avid cyclist myself, as well as a rider of 70 mile club runs, here is my advice: the roads are quite safe and you can go along them without being a nuisance to others, at whatever speed you like. Even the cars will not be hurt by your riding along at 20mph. But you know this already, as you just did 67.37 miles along those roads before going off to bully a dog or two. :-)

Cugel

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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby mjr » 21 Jul 2019, 8:50am

Cugel wrote:Perhaps the answer to this entirely foreseeable problem is to remove the fundamental cause? That would be the cyclists. Let those who can share, share and those who can't go orf elsewhere.

No, the cause is the scofflaw dog owners. Those who can't share go off elsewhere, please.

Personally I like the idea of being able to walk freely and for the dogs to do so too. When there are no cyclists, this is not a problem on such pathways. I've walked thousands of miles with dogs on various sorts and only where there are cyclists is there a problem.

YMMV but loose dogs have caused me plenty of problems when walking. Personally I like the idea of giving irresponsible dog walkers a sound thrashing, but that doesn't make it legal or right! The problem really is the scofflaw doggists. The highway is not their dog playground.

Now, as an avid cyclist myself, as well as a rider of 70 mile club runs, here is my advice: the roads are quite safe and you can go along them without being a nuisance to others, at whatever speed you like. Even the cars will not be hurt by your riding along at 20mph. But you know this already, as you just did 67.37 miles along those roads before going off to bully a dog or two. :-)

Redways are roads too.
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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby gazza_d » 21 Jul 2019, 9:14am

Cugel wrote:Indeed! Here is my own response to the latest me-first dog-detestor, Mr pga:

Perhaps the answer to this entirely foreseeable problem is to remove the fundamental cause? That would be the cyclists. Let those who can share, share and those who can't go orf elsewhere.

Personally I like the idea of being able to walk freely and for the dogs to do so too. When there are no cyclists, this is not a problem on such pathways. I've walked thousands of miles with dogs on various sorts and only where there are cyclists is there a problem. Many are not a problem, of course .... but hurtlers who are tired from 70 mile club runs or aggressively superior for other reasons often are.

Now, as an avid cyclist myself, as well as a rider of 70 mile club runs, here is my advice: the roads are quite safe and you can go along them without being a nuisance to others, at whatever speed you like. Even the cars will not be hurt by your riding along at 20mph. But you know this already, as you just did 67.37 miles along those roads before going off to bully a dog or two. :-)

Cugel


"Let those who can share, share and those who can't go orf elsewhere." - That's exactly my attitude towards selfish dog walkers.

It's bloody simple to be considerate and share
1. keep Fido on a sort lead on under really close control on a path at all times. Save the exercise and toy chucking for the fields.
2. I see you and shout a greeting and usually which side I'm on, if needs be I'll slow down to give you time to move and allow for
3. You reel Fido in and keep walking on one side. you don't have to leap into the hedge or stop, just walk to one side.
4. I pass with as much room as I can, say hi to you and the dog, and maybe a word about the weather, and a thanks.

It's not hard.
Shared paths are exactly that. It's not a linear field or a dog toilet. you sound like the 0.5% of dog walkers I encounter who are actually quite inconsiderate and selfish
And I don;t detest dogs either. I still miss mine 3 years on. but he was always on a short lead on a road or a path from when we first got him, and only let off once at the field. He knew and understood that. So we'll have none of the "dog's right" rubbish either
Last edited by gazza_d on 21 Jul 2019, 9:24am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby Bonefishblues » 21 Jul 2019, 9:16am

Am obliged, thanks.
Last edited by Bonefishblues on 21 Jul 2019, 12:43pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby Cugel » 21 Jul 2019, 12:35pm

gazza_d wrote:
Cugel wrote:Indeed! Here is my own response to the latest me-first dog-detestor, Mr pga:

Perhaps the answer to this entirely foreseeable problem is to remove the fundamental cause? That would be the cyclists. Let those who can share, share and those who can't go orf elsewhere.

Personally I like the idea of being able to walk freely and for the dogs to do so too. When there are no cyclists, this is not a problem on such pathways. I've walked thousands of miles with dogs on various sorts and only where there are cyclists is there a problem. Many are not a problem, of course .... but hurtlers who are tired from 70 mile club runs or aggressively superior for other reasons often are.

Now, as an avid cyclist myself, as well as a rider of 70 mile club runs, here is my advice: the roads are quite safe and you can go along them without being a nuisance to others, at whatever speed you like. Even the cars will not be hurt by your riding along at 20mph. But you know this already, as you just did 67.37 miles along those roads before going off to bully a dog or two. :-)

Cugel


"Let those who can share, share and those who can't go orf elsewhere." - That's exactly my attitude towards selfish dog walkers.

It's bloody simple to be considerate and share
1. keep Fido on a sort lead on under really close control on a path at all times. Save the exercise and toy chucking for the fields.
2. I see you and shout a greeting and usually which side I'm on, if needs be I'll slow down to give you time to move and allow for
3. You reel Fido in and keep walking on one side. you don't have to leap into the hedge or stop, just walk to one side.
4. I pass with as much room as I can, say hi to you and the dog, and maybe a word about the weather, and a thanks.

It's not hard.
Shared paths are exactly that. It's not a linear field or a dog toilet. you sound like the 0.5% of dog walkers I encounter who are actually quite inconsiderate and selfish
And I don;t detest dogs either. I still miss mine 3 years on. but he was always on a short lead on a road or a path from when we first got him, and only let off once at the field. He knew and understood that. So we'll have none of the "dog's right" rubbish either


I parsed you rules and tried a substitution to see if they could be worked up into rules for other domains of way-sharing:

1. Keep your bike in the gutter under really close control on a road at all times. Save the exercise and cycling enjoyments for the fields.
2. I see you and rev/toot a warning and usually which side I'm on, if needs be I'll slow down to give you time to get out my way.
3. You get in the gutter and keep cycling there. You don't have to leap into the hedge or stop, just ride in the gutter.
4. I pass with as much room as I can (3 inches) say hi to you and the bike, and maybe a word about the weather, and a thanks.

Hmmmm.

Dogs, children and even adults like to move freely and to interact in various fashions. A hurtling cyclist feeling entitled because he has done a 70 mile club run is really rather a nuisance to everyone, not just a playful dog. Such cyclists, I know, can get a bit "me-important, you not". I know because the cycling club I rode with behaved like this unless I forced myself to the front and made them all slow and be otherwise considerate to the walkers, dogs, children, grannies and all the others interacting very well until the thrusting cyclists appear. I tried to keep them off such paths, on the roads instead ... but they got ever-so entitled.

As to your dog-toilet etc. remarks. Well, these offenders are just like the cyclists who poo in people's front gardens. eh? (That is, a handy albeit rare emblem with which to bash the other 99% of dog owners who do clean up and otherwise control their dogs within reason).

Still, you may have a point and I will be writing to a Tory to suggest that cyclists be kept on a lead when cycling in that London as this will please all the taxi drivers and many other important motorists who should not have to pay attention to, or accommodate, others. :-)

Cugel

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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby landsurfer » 21 Jul 2019, 2:25pm

I see lots of dogs on and off leads on the towpaths and riverside routes i am now shackled too for cycling.
Dogs on short leads ..... good.
Dogs off leads .... good

Dogs on extender leads ..... quack quack oops !!!
They bother me big time ......
It's just like that, it's just the way it is.
The road goes on forever.

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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby mjr » 21 Jul 2019, 6:20pm

It's not a rare emblem. It's a rare long ride that doesn't see someone not scooping their Fido's poop. It's probably fewer than 10% of doggists, but it's not rare.
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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby mattheus » 21 Jul 2019, 7:20pm

gazza_d wrote:
Cugel wrote:Indeed! Here is my own response to the latest me-first dog-detestor, Mr pga:

Perhaps the answer to this entirely foreseeable problem is to remove the fundamental cause? That would be the cyclists. Let those who can share, share and those who can't go orf elsewhere.

Personally I like the idea of being able to walk freely and for the dogs to do so too. When there are no cyclists, this is not a problem on such pathways. I've walked thousands of miles with dogs on various sorts and only where there are cyclists is there a problem. Many are not a problem, of course .... but hurtlers who are tired from 70 mile club runs or aggressively superior for other reasons often are.

Now, as an avid cyclist myself, as well as a rider of 70 mile club runs, here is my advice: the roads are quite safe and you can go along them without being a nuisance to others, at whatever speed you like. Even the cars will not be hurt by your riding along at 20mph. But you know this already, as you just did 67.37 miles along those roads before going off to bully a dog or two. :-)

Cugel


"Let those who can share, share and those who can't go orf elsewhere." - That's exactly my attitude towards selfish dog walkers.

It's bloody simple to be considerate and share
1. keep Fido on a sort lead on under really close control on a path at all times. Save the exercise and toy chucking for the fields.
2. I see you and shout a greeting and usually which side I'm on, if needs be I'll slow down to give you time to move and allow for
3. You reel Fido in and keep walking on one side. you don't have to leap into the hedge or stop, just walk to one side.
4. I pass with as much room as I can, say hi to you and the dog, and maybe a word about the weather, and a thanks.

It's not hard.
Shared paths are exactly that. It's not a linear field or a dog toilet. you sound like the 0.5% of dog walkers I encounter who are actually quite inconsiderate and selfish
And I don;t detest dogs either. I still miss mine 3 years on. but he was always on a short lead on a road or a path from when we first got him, and only let off once at the field. He knew and understood that. So we'll have none of the "dog's right" rubbish either

Well put.

Dogs (and dog-owners) can be wonderful creatures :) That shouldn't make the selfish minority immune from criticsm.

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Re: Dogs off lead on shared use path

Postby skyhawk » 21 Jul 2019, 8:44pm

Dog owners amaze me, not all but most, it is also illegal to have an untethered dog in the car, especially lose on the front seat
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